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Enter the Dragon (Harry Potter/Shadowrun)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Dunkelzahn, Jul 10, 2018.

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  1. SoCar37

    SoCar37 Getting out there.

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  2. Coily boi

    Coily boi Assume everything I write is half-dead

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  3. SoCar37

    SoCar37 Getting out there.

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    You may have to sign up for the group to get access,
     
  4. Coily boi

    Coily boi Assume everything I write is half-dead

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    That did it.
     
  5. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    Right, in which case Hermione is right, Harry is being over-paranoid and clingy by demanding she not spend her summer break with her parents, in which case the expressions of rage and contempt for her 'wisdom' for 'going to a frat party and drinking the punch' are both inappropriate and more than a little concerning.

    Sure, like I said, I can see it. But only if this stuff here is completely out of line.

    No kidding! Really, as I've said before, the fact that the adults are not going out of their way to address what is obviously seen as a really low-probability risk is perfectly fine. If so, if they're correct, then Hermione agreeing with them should also be perfectly fine.
     
  6. Finerc

    Finerc Your first time is always over so quickly, isn't it?

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    I really hope that Su Li fails some how due to her own actions or by Abercrombie cathing on was she is going for. I really hate her type of people and hope Harry really needs to learn a lesson about trusting everybody immediatly. He and Hermione both really need a reality check.
     
  7. The Unicorn

    The Unicorn Experienced.

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    Nope. Hermione is wrong, there is a significant, and realistic danger that Harry wishes to protect her from, but Hermione's actions aren't the sort of suicidal stupidity some readers are treating it as, merely highly risky and somewhat ill advised behavior.

    The teachers aren't responsible for "Harry and his friends" they're responsible for all the students, and are aware that most likely at least one of their students is going to disappear over the summer and they can't do anything about that. The only thing they can do for their own mental health is not think about it, so they try not to.

    If someone asked for their opinion on Hermione's choices they'd give it, but as it is I doubt most of them know she has a choice other than "hope bad luck strikes someone else". Snape knows about Harry's plan, but since it's a good plan that provides long term benefits and gives Hermione more freedom he has no reason to intervene.
     
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  8. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    Risky and ill-advised behavior... that is only being advised against by Harry. Where's the rest of the advice? Why are he and Abigail the only ones so much as commenting on this? Where's the warning pamplets, the head-of-house commenting on the dangers, the rest of the prefects weighing in, the Frank Discussions With Parents so much as one drop of indication to Hermione that Harry isn't being paranoid and Abigail is playing along?

    In Hermione's case, they can just say to Hermione: "Harry is right, stick close to him". Or to her parents. Even if all their other students don't have that option, the fact that Hermione does should be a resounding bonus in their eyes! Finally, here's one that's going to be safe!

    Plus, they're indeed responsible for Harry and his friends. Like it or not, Harry's a special case- one that spends the summer at Hogwarts, specifically bonds with 'damsels', and is part and parcel of their critical don't-let-the-the-world-blow-up planning! Heck, Hermione is in on the save-the-world planning and has contributed noticeably to it. Why is she suddenly Just Another Student? They'd want to keep her safer than normal just to keep Harry from going off and publicly Dragoning someone to get her back!

    ...They're the ones neck-deep in planning the trip Harry is going on. They know her choices full well, they know they're taking her protector out of the country, and they say nothing? Either to her or her parents?

    Snape thinks giving a 'promise ring' and political top-cover is better than inveigling upon her parents not to put her in a situation where she even has the chance to be kidnapped by slavers? Why can't he do both? Heck, all it takes is a phone call on his part, he knows how to work one. As opposed to all the other adults involved, which would actually have to, yanno, spend the twenty minutes to bother teleporting to her house and actually talk to her guardians before taking her patron and physical security, the very person they've indicated to them would be protecting her from the darker parts of the wizarding world, off to another continent.

    It's simple. If there's a serious threat to Hermione, all the adults are being morons and keeping her and her parents carefully mushroomed and Hermione is making the right call given the information she has. If there isn't a serious threat to Hermione, Harry's being over-paranoid and she's making the right call, period. If there's a debatable threat to Hermione, one where getting it wrong means a life of permanent mind-controlled slavery... where's the debate and discussion with all points of information available considered by her guardians? Why is Harry the only one so much as thinking about this?
     
  9. Loki-L

    Loki-L Getting out there.

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    I like this story very much, even if it has taken quite a bit of tonal shift from the original author's beginning.

    The setting is a crap sack fantasy world that is by its nature the prelude to an even crappier fantasy cyberpunk world.

    The main thing the world has going for it is that Harry is one of the people that is going to be in charge of it.

    He may already have saved the shuttle program and kickstarted a digital revolution by sheer guts and nerve alone. Having the materials derived from his insides avaliable will already make a change the technology available in the near future.

    The fact that an already quite Harry is looking at taking on loans to expand his railway business just as the UK government if going to private railservice puts Harry in a good spot as future titan of industry.

    He is all set to out Branson Branson.

    The superconductor thing if he is smart enough to either invest or accept accept stock as payment will set him up to profit from the coming industry boom.

    His questionsabout the sorting hat'spersonhood and lack of soul should prepare him nicely for the eventual AIs that his superconductors will make possible a bit sooner.

    It will still be a cyberpunk world full of injustice and inequality, but there will be a dragon with the financial, magical and physical power to ward of much of the worst of it in his area of influence.

    He will also have a Harem by the looks of things.

    Right now Hermione does have some issues, but those mightbe resolved by the time Harry comes back to put a proper collar on her. A scary close call with avery's goons might make her appreciate that even more.
     
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  10. MutantRancor

    MutantRancor [Suspected Sithspawn]

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    Doghead Thirteen, the original author, posted his plans for the story. Believe it or not, this current dark turn was a major part of those plans well before Dunkelzahn took over.
     
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  11. The Unicorn

    The Unicorn Experienced.

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    Because for nearly all the students there isn't anything they can do. The ones who know Hermione has a choice assume it's being handled.

    Warning Muggleborn children about the dangers would be like warning kids about the dangers of living in a country being threatened by nukes - there's nothing they can do about it and it will only upset the kids for no good reason.
     
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  12. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    Assuming? Why? And handled by who? Making cavalier assumptions about a person's lifelong freedom, the continued progress of a (literally!) world-shaking research project, and the well-being and secrecy of a gigantic self-willed combination ward and ace in the hole is stupidty and negligence on an unfathomable level- at least for any character we're supposed to be considering even vague competence for!

    (And why does Hermione have a choice here at all? She's thirteen. Why are her parents completely out of the loop, despite having been previously told of the seriousness of the general situation years prior? One. Phone. Call.)

    Ah yes, the old 'don't tell anyone that nukes exist' national education policy. That one happened so many places during the cold war, and was of course the most moral way of handling the situation. (/Sarcasm)

    Yeah, no. Especially no when Hermione has, by grace of luck, access to levels of defense far above and beyond the norm- that every adult involves knows she has, but are not putting into use in her case.

    I've got to ask: why in the world are you so completely determined to place the blame for this situation on a tween girl that is supposedly surrounded by competent adults that, for numerous reasons of responsibility, convenience, politics, and planetary preservation, have need to keep her safe?
     
  13. timuzhti

    timuzhti Your first time is always over so quickly, isn't it?

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    No, it makes you an idiot. That's the same logic as, hey, there are deadly diseases all the time, why not go out in the middle of a pandemic? There are gangs targeting my demographic you say? How about I ignore that? The recent increase in rain is causing flooding? That'll never happen to my house.

    Because the level of risk never changes, even when it does.
     
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  14. Mashadarof402

    Mashadarof402 Experienced.

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    The fact that you can't see that level of risk of being harmed is the same as everyone else, thus making individual action rather futile, only demonstrates your lack of understanding.

    People were making the argument that Hermione was especially at risk, and that she should be living in a bubble to keep her safe.

    But as long as Lucius and his snatch team is out of the picture, which can be debated but isn't the point, Hermione is at no more risk of being kidnapped than any other non-noble attendant of the school. And since the school is not denuded of all but old money children, we can conclude that the rate of disappearances is not so high as to be guaranteed for everyone without strong protectors.

    In terms of risk factor, Hermione is just one more person living in the Favelas. And even then people there don't take excessively more precautions than most others if it comes at the expense of their other living concerns.
     
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  15. Simonbob

    Simonbob Really? You don't say.

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    From what little I know about the Favelas, they do.

    If nothing else, they pay their protection money, and are vastly more willing to dive for cover ASAP, than in safer places. There are people I know here in Sydney, Australia, who don't quite beleve that rape and murder is a real thing here. They've lived in safety for so long, they can't quite see that it's real.

    I'll bet there's not a single person who lives in such locales with such naive views.
     
  16. Mashadarof402

    Mashadarof402 Experienced.

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    Paying protection money and diving for cover when trouble breaks out is not what I consider excessively more for living in a higher risk crime heavy environment.

    Becoming a permanent barnacle to Harry in perpetuity as argued by some posters here certainly qualifies as excessive.

    Even if they had the means, it'd be unlikely the Favela inhabitants would do the equivalent and always walk around in lvl 4 body armor and carry enough long arms to start a war.
     
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  17. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    Makes sense.

    Thus, if this is correct, Harry's the paranoid one and Hermione (or rather, her parents) are making a solid judgement call on her safety. Well, if her parents know the full situation- knowing as they do the risks of Hermione being too far from Harry, what would they say if offered the chance to add to her safety?

    To extend the metaphor, a Favela-bound couple's daughter has made friends with a rich kid with private security, who could host her during the worst part of the year for violence. Do they ask her to stay there, or come home and visit, despite the latter being noticably less safe?

    (Either way, of course, holding the daughter responsible for the danger she is in would be really rather silly.)

    No kidding. I'm rather concerned at the level of drive towards "Hermione must obey Harry, he's only looking out for her! She can't comprehend the danger she's in! Ah, but what would you expect from such a low-wis know-it-all!"

    (Well. Unless, of course, we've got the risk balance figured wrong, Harry and Abigail are right, and the real reason it's a crapsack world is because every 'good guy' adult involved is dumber than a post.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  18. Simonbob

    Simonbob Really? You don't say.

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    A fair few would, if they didn't think it'd make things worse for them.


    Being obviously capapable of defending yourself, makes you a priority target of the predators in a place like that. The way to survive there is to be a sheep.

    If you're not a sheep, you're a rival for power.





    What I'm saying, is that it seems that Hermione and family haven't quite realised they are in a "higher risk crime heavy environment", and didn't grow up in such a location, so they're making mistakes.

    Of course, Harry might be going too far, as well, but we won't know until the right chapter comes out.
     
  19. sssisss

    sssisss Know what you're doing yet?

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    To my reading, it seems Harry is both somewhat correct, AND obsessively wrong.

    Remember how he used to obsess over 'knights' coming to kill him and rescue the 'maiden' in his 'lair'? He's a young boy dragon, and risk assessment is hard, even for real adults (like Hermione's parents). He tends to swing the other way, unable to ignore the potential threat. It's pretty in-character for him.

    And being upset over being told she can't go home for the summer is pretty in-character for Hermione.

    As for Su Li, she hasn't yet entered the story properly. All she knows is the background information and her task of getting Harry-juice to her eggs. We don't know her, we just know what she's like here and now, before having connections to other characters and before she's tested in the drama of having to choose between her mission and her family.

    As for her organization, well, it's likely they will be on the receiving end of an enraged shadowrun dragon, come what may, on the end. Their end, really. Harry is well on his way to creating a network of favors owed and beneficial relationships to people in power, and to quote a certain TV series: "If that man is calling on his debtors, god help them. And god help you."
     
  20. The Unicorn

    The Unicorn Experienced.

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    Nope.

    The issue is that while everyone else is at risk, and can't do anything about it, Hermione has a choice.

    If you live in Tornado alley and someone offers you an actually working Tornedo repellent, does refusing to take it not make you an idiot?
    Or does it make the guy who offered it, and becomes concerned when you reject it paranoid?
     
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  21. Dunkelzahn

    Dunkelzahn No one of consequence

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    Just to clarify:

    While the audience should be aware, none of the characters involved in this argument have any inkling that there has been a snatch team camped outside Hermione's house for the last year. They have no reason to suspect that Hermione is at any greater risk than is normal for someone in her position --- that is not to say that said risk is inconsequential, but neither is it unusual. Additionally, as has been pointed out, Hermione --- and even her parents, if to a lesser extent --- have yet to fully internalize what that threat means. They have lived their whole lives up to this point in a modern western country, and a nice part of one at that, and that sort of thing is simply not something they've ever had to think about before in regards to themselves. The disconnect is not helped by the fact that they never moved, so there is no changed environment to remind them of their changed circumstances.

    Harry, on the other hand, is the sort to take warnings seriously, sometimes a bit too seriously, such as with his efforts at knight-proofing. When Snape explained to him how the seedy underbelly of the wizarding world worked, Harry paid attention, so he takes the threat seriously. Is he taking it too seriously? Perhaps, but I don't really think so. If you'll recall, the minimal case he was arguing for back in 4.8.9 was not "remain glued to my side for all eternity", nor was it "live in terror at all times", rather it was "if you're going to go off on your own, can you at least wait until I'll be in the same time zone, so I can have some faint chance of being able to help if something goes wrong". From Harry's perspective, the delta on that decision was only a month's delay on her plans, and as he has never had parents to go home to, he doesn't have the perspective on why that would be so intolerable for her.

    For her part, Abigail has grown up in the wizarding world, complete with memories of personal tragedy to illustrate the reality of the threat. Just as Harry does, she sees the sacrifice being asked of Hermione as simply a month's delay in seeing her parents in favor of reducing that potential threat to near nil, and as a seventeen-year-old who has been going home regularly on breaks, that seems like a very minimal sacrifice to her, indeed. Additionally, she has the specter of Harry's backup plan of hanging over her during that conversation with Hermione, which Abigail has a strong personal interest in avoiding and which was not an insignificant contribution to her irritation with the younger girl.

    Hermione, on the other hand, has been without any quality time with her parents for about two years (they've visited, but that's not the same), and she greatly misses them. So, she decided back during Christmas break that she was going to go home for the summer come hell or high water. When her friends argue with her to try to get her to delay for reasons of safety from a threat that she still has trouble believing is actually real, she dismisses their fears as excessive and persists. Is she being unreasonable? A bit, but it's understandable given her context.

    Essentially, Harry made the minor mistake of assuming things about Hermione's plans, which contributed to the time crunch that makes everything so urgent. Hermione made the mistake of not telling him her plans earlier so he could work around them. Had she told him she was going home for the summer back when she decided it, then Harry would have had ample time to get protections in place and avoid their current desperate scramble. The main problem was one of communication and assumptions, which was then compounded by Hermione's refusal to compromise, which forced Harry's hand. None of these are unforgivable mistakes, nor (I hope) are they unrealistic ones. For that matter, even Hermione's refusal to compromise is hardly a universally negative trait; uncompromising commitment is only a bad thing when you're committed to the wrong thing, after all.

    Those minor mistakes are, however, compounding in a rather tragic way at the moment which is amplifying their effects into a major problem.

    As for the adults, most generally try not to think about the problem as they don't have the resources or the authority to do anything about the situation at large, and dwelling too much on an inevitable tragedy is just depressing. By the rules of hospitality, they are responsible for their students while they are in Hogwarts. Out of session, when the kids are no longer their guests, they no longer have the customary right to butt into things unasked, nor do they have the resources to be everywhere, even if they were asked. A castle is easy to defend, that's what makes it a castle. Distributed assets spread throughout the country under threat from a collection of highly-mobile, near-untraceable strike forces are significantly less so.

    That is in general. As for the specifics, the only adult who knows the details of the current drama, and even then, only of late, is Snape, and as far as he is concerned, Hermione binding herself to Harry is the best outcome she could hope for. Remember, sympathetic characterization aside, Snape remains a bitter, abrasive, pessimistic asshole who has despaired so deeply of being able to fix society that the only solution he can imagine is tearing the whole mess down for someone else to rebuild among the ashes. He knows Harry, so the 'slave contract' aspect of things is a nonissue; a slave contract is only a problem if the 'owner' makes it one, otherwise it's just a meaningless scrap of parchment. That only leaves the social implications to consider, and even those are minimal to Snape's way of thinking. Hermione is giving up her chances of marrying within British wizarding society? Whyever would she want to marry into it in the first place? No one goes fishing in a cesspool. If things don't work out with Harry, she can just go cast her line in the ocean that is non-magical society and try to catch herself a husband there. There is zero downside to this from his perspective.

    Hermione's parents would almost certainly have come down on things differently --- likely by taking time off to accompany them all on the road trip and avoiding the issue entirely --- but they have not been consulted on the matter. They are in communication, but only with Hermione, and Hermione has been less than forthcoming with details (as is fairly normal for a kid her age when talking with her parents). As far as they know, their daughter has been scheduled to come home for the summer ever since Christmas, and her friends and teachers are fine with that. They will have even less time to react to this than Harry has.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  22. easlyamused

    easlyamused Getting sticky.

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    The irony will be when Malfoy senior comes to the rescue to the utter bafflement of the snatch team (assuming that any of them know that Malfoy hired them).
     
  23. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    I can follow the logic chain, more or less, right up until:

    Here. Why not? One ten-minute phone-call or apparition visit by Dumbledore (already directly involved in this whole Hermione security situation, even if he's keeping it quiet!) any teacher (like the ones involved in Hermione's top-cover heading off to a different continent), Snape, Hermione, Harry, Abigail, or any of the Goblins or other employees he's roped into this mess could see this whole thing done with right-quick. Hermione's parents either tell her to stick with Harry, or they disregard the warnings, want her home with them, and Harry and Hermione do the Contract anyway as a make-sure.

    Really, from a Dolyist standpoint, I can see what you're going for here: deeper connections between Harry and Hermione, toss in some drama, showcasing a dangerous world as appropriately dangerous, etc. But... when that drama and danger is not because of the number and capability of malignant forces, but because the 'good guys' can't use basic communications even when someone's life and freedom is on the line... it sort of breaks down hard. You have extreme measures being utilized, not because extreme measures are necessary, but because the simpler measures just sort of get... forgotten about. It calls into question the competence of all involved; when those people are supposed to be competent adults... well, thence leads Adults Are Useless and any number of kids-book tropes that are part of what made the original HP canon such a schizophrenic mess.

    Now, if Harry and Abigail or anyone else did contact her parents, and they acknowledge the risk and decide to have Hermione come home anyway, that sort of solves the whole problem and lets the good guys remain at least vaguely competent... but that doesn't let the narrative hang the whole decision on the stubbornness of a thirteen-year-old girl.

    It really seems like the entire point of the whole drama here is to showcase Hermione's stubbornness and character flaws, but it deeply undercuts the competence and agency of so many other characters that it's probably not worth it.
     
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  24. windall

    windall Getting out there.

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    The thing I find the strangest is that Hermione's parents weren't informed of the risks she would face outside Hogwarts when they were first contacted.
     
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  25. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    They were. Right here, section 2.7.7. They appear to fully understand the situation and how deeply their daughter's security depends on Harry's patronage and proximity.

    Which makes their currently being completely left out of this situation by all involved all the more bewildering.
     
  26. LysanderArgent

    LysanderArgent "Chivalrous" Pervert

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    So it all comes down to the problems of making assumptions, failing to communicate, and being unwilling to compromise. Man, that's so freaking real. The perfect description of how the majority of relationships (romantic or otherwise) get fucked up.
     
  27. Ayashi

    Ayashi Well worn.

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    Because it's a classic trope of this literature gender.
    When was the last time you read a teen/young adult novel with teen protag(s) that also include both competent and active (...and not evil) adults, let alone parents?
     
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  28. RedX

    RedX Not too sore, are you?

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    I'm pretty sure Dunkelzahn isn't going for Adults are Useless. He has consistently shown Dumbledore, Snape, the Goblins, Hermione's parents, the rest of the teachers, and many of the side-characters as reasonable, moral, and competent... right up until this very plot thread, where they all drop the ball simultaneously. (Or, in Snape's case, decide it's better that she get tied to Harry permanently rather than inform her parents and let them make equally effective- or better- accommodations on their end. That's on Snape.)

    And sure, I can see that happening- that's life, people make mistakes- but the attendant focus on Hermione as suddenly solely responsible for decisions on her own security situation is very odd. (And the reaction comments as to how she needs Something Truly Horrible to happen to her to realize her mistakes and character flaws and that she should be listening to the twelve-year-old instead of her own judgement and that of all those adults is actually... rather disgusting, truth be told. That's not in the story, though, so we'll have to wait and see if anything does happen, and if the blame gets handled properly if it does.)

    If this 'fic is intending to showcase how no adult in a position of authority is worthy of that responsibility in order to make the kids responsible for every aspect of their health and security, like original HP canon did, I very much stand corrected- and we can safely attribute this entire muddle to that, instead.
     
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  29. Kooler

    Kooler Making the rounds.

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    To summarize of the situation as I understand it.
    Not one Professor at Hogwarts knows about the snatch team Camping her house. I.e. this is something that sometimes happens but is not that common It is a danger that she and her parents have been told about. And they are working on the planet not going BOOM at the moment IE they really are paying antention to the very large and explosive problem in front of them.


    Malfoy hired that to get back at the Weasley's thinking that she was Rons girl? And has no way to call it off since it was a blind opp so he could not be tied to it.
    He has or had no clue about her ties to Harry at all.

    To the rest of English wizarding world Harry is a 12 year old Orphan of a Noble Family. I.e. he is limited on anything he can do becuase he is just a kid in school that has no real power.

    The Readers on the other hand Know the setting and just how Serious Shadowrun Dragons are We as readers Understand that they are sticking there hand into a woodchipper.
    I.E. Harry is very important to Gringots and the Goblins. And Harry is willing to use that. So I fully expect the attempt to be made I do think is going to go very wrong fast with a Goblin Rife team on hand not to mention the portkeys. I think it will be Loud and Public with Harry being very willing to remove the problem if he can.
     
  30. LysanderArgent

    LysanderArgent "Chivalrous" Pervert

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    No, it's showcasing character's who have differing viewpoints, situations, and flaws and the complexity of such situations and how something like this can happen. And how a few small mistakes in context can cause something far worse to possibly happen. All of the characters are at fault in some form here.

    Dunk has already explained that Snape is flawed and why he is acting the way he is. The teachers, on the other hand, are running an entire school and planning for a massive project in another country that I don't believe they've ever been too, and here's the biggest thing; they don't know any of the details about this situation. They are completely ignorant about all of this; why then would they interfere?

    Hermoine's parents probably assume that the school or Harry wouldn't let send Hermoine back unless it was safe, OR the fact they have barely seen their daughter in two years has stopped them from being overly suspicious or paranoid about the situation; which is completely understandable. (Dunk has already explained that they haven't internalised the warnings about the magical world yet.)

    Really, Harry should have brought this problem up with Dumbledore and it probably would have been solved fairly quickly. Dumbledore would have either explained to Hermoine how serious this is while leveraging his position of authority to thereby change her mind. Or going over her head and explaining everything to her parents.

    The massive failure here is that the children aren't roping in the very competent, wise, and morally upright adults they have on hand and are only focusing on trying to solve the problem by themselves. Which is in many ways a deconstruction of the Adults are Useless trope.

    Edit: Or perhaps it's just that Harry is trusting Snape too much. In Harry's mind, he's already roped in a professor to corroborate his views on the situation so he must feel that they can't help him. He's the adult and he knows about the situation and isn't doing anything about it. Yes, Dunk has explained why, but he's still the only adult aware of all of this. But we already know he's a deeply flawed individual do we expect him to be perfect? If you need to blame anyone though; blame Snape.

    Personally I just see this as just a massive clusterfuck of small failures or mistakes all around that are letting this one situation slip through and could lead to something horrible. (If the Goblins don't interfere.) In terms of the story, I love it. It feels like a very realistic scenario. Some people might say it's contrived, but all stories are contrived if you look hard enough at it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
    Skjadir, easlyamused, Nioz and 3 others like this.
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