Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Shaper47]

On what exactly? Because you have not been saying "maybe we can make the Wolf less bad" you have been saying "the Wolf dousing the lights protects the world and I like him".

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Did you forget my entire theory that the Wolf is trying to play the part of the Wheel and have Velvet play the part of the Moth?

 

[DelightedOne]

Did you forget my entire theory that the Wolf is trying to play the part of the Wheel and have Velvet play the part of the Moth?

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You mean the Mother of Wolves being the successor of the Wolf-Divided? Wasn't that obvious?

But that is still not influencing the Wolf, it is completing his original plan.

 

[des-pair-2]

1. Intel from the Wolf without an RA, but Soft pays the price.

2.Bird said there is a hypothetical future where we could "corrupt" the Wolf back.

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There is that saying 'the ends justify the means,' but the means here are horrendous and the ends purely hypothetical.

We could get intel about the Wolf, but what kind of intel and would we even do with it? We could corrupt the Wolf back, but what steps have we taken on that road? We are working with time limit, it is too late to start walking new paths.

Just focus on getting to the GLORY, don't mess up the world in the meanwhile, and everything will be fine.

 

[Greymere]

1. Intel from the Wolf without an RA, but Soft pays the price.

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Even more specifically, at least for why I'm tempted to vote for it, is that whenever we've asked about "hey do we know enough about RAs to try and figure out how to remove the stains" the answer has always been "you don't understand enough about the nature of the stains to try". So this very well may be the only opportunity we have to gain enough information about the stains to learn if/how they might be eventually removed (even if it takes a Harmony blast to the face) without actually. You know. Birthing another Wolf and making the world an objectively worse and more evil place.

Like, the fact that it ordinarily requires us to pass the point of "the filth is greater than what remains" and the nature of the Wolf makes me suspicious that, under normal circumstances, the information that we'd gain from passing that point would also be something we would no longer be able to act upon after passing that point of no return.

 

[DelightedOne]

So this very well may be the only opportunity we have to gain enough information about the stains to learn if/how they might be eventually removed (even if it takes a Harmony blast to the face) without actually. You know. Birthing another Wolf and making the world an objectively worse and more evil place.

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That's true.

Yet I can't help but remember how many other people have said: we don't have AP, we don't have time, Glory is right there.

It just feels like it is going to be a "fire and forget" situation, especially because we won't be the ones dealing with the consequences.

 

[ses]

Complaints about spending Velvet AP on getting an entire cult's worth of minion actions, but instead we want to commit to advancing the Wolf's footprint in the world (even if less than a full RA) for the sake of... what, a hypothetical way to maybe remove Stains that we wont be able to invest AP into doing anyway before reaching Glory and rendering the whole thing moot? We already know that reaching a non-Wolf ending undoes the Stains because we were explicitly told that going up to 6/7 stains would not block other endings and that doing so would not alter the epilogue of the other endings. Therefore the Stains must get undone by other endings.

 

[des-pair-2]

-snip-

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To me personally, the problem of removing the Stains has always been a problem for Hour Velvet. Given what would normally have to happen for us to know how to do it, I assume-

Like, the fact that it ordinarily requires us to pass the point of "the filth is greater than what remains" and the nature of the Wolf makes me suspicious that, ordinarily, the information that we'd gain from passing that point will also be something we would no longer be able to act upon after passing that point of no return.

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-exactly that.

 

[Greymere]

That's true.

Yet I can't help but remember how many other people have said: we don't have AP, we don't have time, Glory is right there.

It just feels like it is going to be a "fire and forget" situation, especially because we won't be the ones dealing with the consequences.

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There is a reason that I said that I am tempted to vote for it, not that I am actually voting for it

And there's always the looming issue of, even if a Harmony blast to the face would work, the Element of Magic is still depressed and out-of-commission, we haven't met all of the other Elements yet, and even though we have Applejack on our contacts list she's still only just a Friend.

Complaints about spending Velvet AP on getting an entire cult's worth of minion actions, but instead we want to commit to advancing the Wolf's footprint in the world (even if less than a full RA) for the sake of... what, a hypothetical way to maybe remove Stains that we wont be able to invest AP into doing anyway before reaching Glory and rendering the whole thing moot? We already know that reaching a non-Wolf ending undoes the Stains because we were explicitly told that going up to 6/7 stains would not block other endings and that doing so would not alter the epilogue of the other endings. Therefore the Stains must get undone by other endings.

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Considering that the setting is crossed with CS, I find the idea that ascending to Glory will undo all the damage we have already done to both the Wake and the Mansus to be... optimistic? Maybe if we were going for the Harmony ending, but I don't really see that damage being undone in Glory or Moon.

 

[ses]

Considering that the setting is crossed with CS, I find the idea that ascending to Glory will undo all the damage we have already done to both the Wake and the Mansus to be... optimistic? Maybe if we were going for the Harmony ending, but I don't see that damage being undone in Glory or Moon.

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We were told that the Stains don't change the Glory epilogue.

 

[Greymere]

We were told that the Stains don't change the Glory epilogue.

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Were we? Or were only told that it wouldn't prevent us from getting the Glory ending, which is not the same thing as "this will not change the epilogue"?

(this is a genuine question, I do not remember)

 

[Shaper47]

But that is still not influencing the Wolf, it is completing his original plan.

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Is the Moth the same as the Wheel? Is the lore Moth different from that of Heart? Were the Wood different when they passed from the light of the Wheel to the darkness of the Moth?

Who defines the 'Wolf'?

Who says the 'Wolf' cannot be driven by love?

Who's will drives the 'Wolf' to action?

If one speaks and the other is silent what is heard comes from the one who speaks.

What is it the Wolf desires most...

 

[ses]

Were we? Or were only told that it wouldn't prevent us from getting the Glory ending, which is not the same thing as "this will not change the epilogue"?

(this is a genuine question, I do not remember)

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In the Master vote QM said that he would always give an explicit warning whenever an option would change our epilogue. We have never gotten any such warning about the Stains despite it being a frequent subject of discussion. If P then Q, if not Q then not P.

 

[DelightedOne]

Who defines the 'Wolf'?

Who says the 'Wolf' cannot be driven by love?

Who's will drives the 'Wolf' to action?

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"Three natures
hath the Wolf Divided;
he unmaketh;
he unmaketh;
at the last, he unmaketh"

What is it the Wolf desires most...

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Death. And what better way to reach it than having someone else take his role?

Pretty words but they still don't change the truth.

 

[Shaper47]

Pretty words but they still don't change the truth.

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I see you have no answer to the difference between the Moth and the Wheel though.

No answer to the difference between the lores of Moth and Heart.

Three natures
hath the Wolf Divided;
he unmaketh;
he unmaketh;
at the last, he unmaketh

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Sigh, your being deliberately obtuse here.

There is once voice that speaks to the world and who fire casts a shadow upon it and it is not his.

 

[Greymere]

In the Master vote QM said that he would always give an explicit warning whenever an option would change our epilogue. We have never gotten any such warning about the Stains despite it being a frequent subject of discussion. If P then Q, if not Q then not P.

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I was more asking for a quote, but I believe I found the one you are referencing anyway.

Allowing the Master to be reborn as Shaded Leaf, the first Prince of Equestria, would have explicitly "altered your epilogue". Maybe positively, maybe negatively, but certainly up to interpretation.
As it stands, Mareinette's Sacrament wouldn't have that kind of effect. I plan on explicitly telling you guys if you have a doom clock that is close to exploding (Celestia) or if a certain decision might have ramifications on your endgame (Shaded Leaf).
To be clear, I won't hold your hand. So if it's a known threat, like your disappeared Master, I won't let you guys know when it's about to bite. But if it's something sufficiently unpredictable and important, I'll give you guys a clear warning.

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I would like to point out that Bird said that he'd warn us if it's something sufficiently unpredictable. The Wolves are many things, but the only aspect in which they are unpredictable is the "how", not the "what". It is, in fact, extremely predictable that more Wolves = the world becomes a worse place.

 

[DelightedOne]

I see you have no answer to the difference between the Moth and the Wheel though.

No answer to the difference between the lores of Moth and Heart.

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Oh, I do. I just thought it was irrelevant.

But if you insist.

The Moth born from sacrifice was a god-from-Blood.
The Wheel was a god-from-Stone. We don't understand its nature enough to say what exactly that means.

The Moth was born from humanity, The Wheel precedes them.
The Wheel is a manifestation of nature in its cyclic form seen through inhuman views meanwhile The Moth is a manifestation of nature in its chaotic and unknown form by humans.

Moth and Heart were once one, so their differences are few, both deal with life, both refer to eternity in some way(keeping remains and preservation, respectively) and of course both have a deep conection to nature and life(though Moth has an advantage in the first), they are both instinctive and honor the movements of life through dance.

However, the first thing that comes to mind is that Moth is... quiet, furtive. Heart on the other hand is loud, unapologetically loud.
Aside from that Moth only preserves what remains, Heart tries to keep as much as it can the same, protected, dancing.
And of course Heart is perfectly happy with keeping things the same, Moth isn't.

And for your last comment, don't drag Harmony into this.

 

[Shaper47]

And for your last comment, don't drag Harmony into this.

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???

I have no idea what you are going on about here.

How does Velvet being the pony in charge of her sons (instead of their father) have to do with Harmony?

Those are two completely different topics.

The Moth was born from humanity, The Wheel precedes them.

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???

Right, stuff from alternate histories that don't exist in the quest aside.

Moth lore is explicitly different the Heart lore.

The Moth is explicitly different then the Wheel.

Moth might have come from/be birthed by Heart/Wheel but it/they are different then their origin.

So logically Velvet Covers is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided and whatever lore of Velvet Covers defines is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided's lore of Agony.

 

[DelightedOne]

???

I have no idea what you are going on about here.

How does Velvet being the pony in charge of her sons (instead of their father) have to do with Harmony?

Those are two completely different topics.

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My mistake then, the "fire" and "casting a shadow" part sounded like one of your anti-Harmony lines.

Right, stuff from alternate histories that don't exist in the quest aside.

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Well, Baldomare confirmed that ponies cursed themselves with the Moth just like humans did.

After all, as the old saying went, in the forests of the first continent, our ancestors cursed themselves with their own god… Tell me, Velvet, do you know what that means? Or rather, do you know what that meant?"

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Moth lore is explicitly different the Heart lore.

The Moth is explicitly different then the Wheel.

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Yes, they are different things, but like I said, they are remarkably similar and like you just said

Moth might have come from/be birthed by Heart/Wheel but it/they are different then their origin.

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They came from the same place, siblings, if you are willing to use that term for a law of reality.

So logically Velvet Covers is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided and whatever lore of Velvet Covers defines is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided's lore of Agony.

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Of course, but will still be a legacy of Agony. Blood giving its place to Flesh won't change everything, just give it a persepective closer to mortal nature instead of the higher conceptual side of it.