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How I Saved History (Fate/Grand Order SI)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Charles Flynn, Apr 22, 2020.

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  1. HelloThereItsMeGeralt

    HelloThereItsMeGeralt Getting sticky.

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    The game is hell if you have bad luck in gacha, but it has an excellent story in spite of its issues.
     
  2. EVA-Saiyajin

    EVA-Saiyajin Well worn.

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    Wow, that’s NASTY.

    Shakespeare is probably burning paper from the sheer speed he’s writing.
     
  3. FourthPear

    FourthPear Frequent Flier.

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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  4. EVA-Saiyajin

    EVA-Saiyajin Well worn.

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    Yeah, I was snickering too.
     
  5. Me. Joka-r

    Me. Joka-r Making the rounds.

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  6. Silver W. King

    Silver W. King King of Adventures

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    You know, I really shouldn't be surprised that Flynn would never allow the Singularities to go shounen. It makes sense that he'll always focus on destroying the enemy's plan before they work, or try and get a win out of left field rather than go straight forward like Ritsuka.

    And it makes sense given his rant at Ozymandias. He has no confidence in myself or his abilities other than to lie, cheat and steal to win, and he would throw away anything starting with his pride in order to secure victory.

    But the more I read the story, while I'm entertained by the twists and plotting he uses to win, I can't help but feel that his lack of compassion will lead to losing come Solomon Temple.

    Maybe the varies Servants from the Singularities don't come to aid him. Maybe Galahad doesn't manage to stop Goetia's first attack because Mash isn't willing to die. Heck, maybe that ignoring of Mash and loss of identity comes to bite them here with Goetia secretly appealing to Mash on their shared abandonment and wins her to his side.

    I like reading about how Flynn pulls an unexpected win, but...I don't...want to see him win this with his usual methods. Rather I'd want this whole approach of absolute pragmatism to be the reason why he fails to save mankind in the end. It would feel wrong if he won...but thinking on how I'm feeling like this makes me a bit disappointed in myself. Like I'm an elitist about how the world can be can saved and should just be glad it was saved in the end.

    Yet, the means should never justify the ends...right?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  7. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    Well...

    ...

    ... Grampa Hassan is probably going to have a bit of competition on who is the scariest Servant.

    Seriously Shakespeare is one scary ass motherfucker.
     
  8. Me. Joka-r

    Me. Joka-r Making the rounds.

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    Just a thought, but MAYBE Gilagmesh might be a dick about the whole killing Kingu through heart break and trickery thing. He have a soft spot for him in the game and anime so..... he gets angry or a little annoyed with Flynn.
     
  9. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    A little?

    I'm predicting Gil is going to want to do things to Flynn that will make Hell seem pleasant.
     
  10. Potates

    Potates Are ya ready kids?!

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    Don't worry about it. I'm sure Flynn has some plan that will work perfectly and nothing will go wrong. I mean, it's not like it happens all the time at this point.
     
  11. EVA-Saiyajin

    EVA-Saiyajin Well worn.

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    I'm not so sure that one can define it as lack of compassion.

    That said, I've gotten a little tried of vigorously debating how "bad" a person he is, so I'll bow out of a true rebuttal.
     
  12. gjsponge

    gjsponge dank memer

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    Damn, that was brutal.
    Kingu literally got brainwashed worse than girls in hypnosis doujins.
     
  13. HelloThereItsMeGeralt

    HelloThereItsMeGeralt Getting sticky.

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    And you have fallen into the shounen trap. Congratulations. Truthfully speaking, Shounen path requires that you have absurd luck and/or gifted in any manner. For people with abysmal luck paired with poor people skills? Flynn's way is the only option. And frankly speaking, Flynn is not an asshole by choice. He has adapted now, otherwise, he felt it that he was wrong. If Flynn forgets this and starts believing that what he does is right, then he deserves what you think he does. Otherwise, its open fest. And ain't it the fairest thing of all?

    And whats about Flynn losing this war? He already lost it when he decided to fight it. He will be traumatized, and I feel if it will be time for him to return home:

    1) He will reject home because he has changed and his home will no longer be his home.

    2) Even if he returns to his home, he will remember all of his, and/or retain the feelings in his home, making his life an absolute wreck. I mean full-on PTSD and stuff making normal life impossible.

    And consider this, considering your viewpoint elitist, and by that viewpoint, it is desirable and acceptable to see Flynn lose. But a pragmatist [like Flynn] will consider even your viewpoint acceptable and the corresponding victory if you fight for it.

    And people, why do we forget?

    >>Battles may be won by the better soldier. Wars are won by those who are willing to sacrifice everything to ensure victory.
     
  14. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    Don't forget that even if he wins the chances of some mage being offended that Flynn saved the world are very high and that said mage would want to harm Flynn for his actions, because most mages are utter bastards.
     
  15. Silver W. King

    Silver W. King King of Adventures

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    And you're right. Logically, it makes sense for Flynn to try his hardest to win and be rewarded for his efforts, even if I don't like how he wins.

    I just can't help but reject that because a part of me strongly believes, or rather wishes, that when worst comes to worst, at the eleventh hour, when things are really, really, really bad, humanity will show it's best version. It would, well, present its most kind acts, it's most compassionate, it's most understanding, it's most brave. It's why protagonists like Ritsuka, or Narukami Yu, etc., characters that social-fu their way to victory, appeal to me.

    They win because of doing the right thing, the kind thing, the humane thing.

    But realistically, well...you don't win by being a good person.

    And that's really the crux of it for me.

    The ones who save the world aren't people who are heroic as we tend to idolize, but the brutal realists who were most pragmatic.

    Charlies is not an escapist VN Protag. He's not a bad person. He's just a normal guy doing his best in a bad situation.

    And because SI Protags tend to easily be vessels for the readers (as in, it's easy to imagine yourself in their place), due to relatability, I reject him, and the idea of him winning, because...if I was in his shoes, would I do the same things?

    I hate that this story makes me consider that the answer might not be a solid "No".

    And there is that too.

    You do your best and your reward is to be shot in the back of the head, or taken and experimented on while alive by some shitlord with a stick up their ass that your can see it out of their ears.
     
  16. Princess Celestia

    Princess Celestia Supreme Ruler of all of Equestria.

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    Don't forget everyone being a good person and refusing to flush the Crypters down the toilet is also gonna bite Flynn in the ass where in an Alien God now gets to try his hand at destroying everything.

    Like no idea what it would do if it didn't have the Crypters on hand, might just wait for the end of it all or still try.

    Also the Crypters are gonna be pissed if Flynn does presumably beat Goatia because all of them combined barely fucking managed if I can recall then we get our one guy who's managing it pretty well with just one of him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  17. Fire guard

    Fire guard Your first time is always over so quickly, isn't it?

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    Mash might not really go to goetia side. Because remember Flynn held her hand at what he thought was their final moment. Maybe that will be what saves the day. Because I can just imagine Mash just having an anime flashback to that moment. Like Mash having a sort of vision like Archer/Shirou had in UBW going all "Thats hell your walking into" to a real or imaginary Flynn who is gonna march off to save humanity.
     
  18. HelloThereItsMeGeralt

    HelloThereItsMeGeralt Getting sticky.

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    So, let Flynn lose and kill off humanity, or let him win so he can be shanked by a toilet brush. Hmmm, the choice is simple, the first. After all, dying off due to Goetia in infinitely better than getting shanked by a toilet brush.

    Many pop cultures have destroyed reality for us. His reward for saving humanity is the safety of mankind from Goetia. Not his continued survival. After that, even if there would be no lostbelts, Flynn would have to fight off Mage's Association and their ilk because that will be a war of his survival. No longer humanity, but trying to protect himself will ake him a complete villain because you are supposed to sacrifice for the sake of humanity yes?

    As for rejection, yeah it might be considered for you, but the truth is, it is unacceptable because almost everyone hates mirrors. The truth of victories rarely come to light, we very easily venerate normies and the extraordinaries are d**ks. In the worst hour, men are not better than beasts, that's why propaganda exists, to drive men. Just look in your surroundings. Things are not getting any better. People in many places are denying the means to combat and reduce the spread of corona either because they think they will be safe no matter what, or they deny corona. Many people are happy to burrow their heads in the sand and pretend all is well, rather than act in many many problems.

    My friend follow Doomslayer, Goblinslayer, Guts and you will find so many disturbing parallels to the reality that it is not funny. People are inherently selfish. Try working for any movement that is not agreeable to local politics, when your family is not of the same background; and see how suddenly your family, the so-called family that is supposed to stand through with you thick and thin becomes your greatest enemy.

    VN protagonists in each and every topic are cracks, the stories are crack. Start thinking through in parallel with real-life and suddenly all those heroes appear worse than villains.

    I will give a final example, few years back a movie was released, Man of Steel. The execution could have been a lot better, but it was nearest to reality what could have happened. Because Protag of that film was not taught to think like this, he followed the words of a Church priest rather than try to make tactical decisions. Because the truth is, even if you are going for peace you must be ready for war.

    Flynn's victory is a very variable thing, if we go for even more realistic story, and the most realistic part would be, replacements are brought in to fight off the Lostbelts who fail extremely miserably. Then Flynn has to be brought back but now he has to work with men who sold him out, who experimented on him, who hate him [he feels the same] against men/women who were the very best and this time the stakes will be even higher. Can you do that Charles Flynn?

    And we must keep in mind that if the Crypters cause the Lostbelts, here, maximum chances are to hide their shame, people will blame Flynn for "not taking action" or "hesitating" rather than take responsibility themselves. If Charles Flynn keeps Roman alive, I want to see that retard say regretfully, "I cannot do anything about this. Chin up and move on".
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  19. HelloThereItsMeGeralt

    HelloThereItsMeGeralt Getting sticky.

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    FFS, I do not care if I get warnings or bans, just update Chaldea on fire. At least there Chaldea is gone, so you can give the protags as many as happy endings as possible.
     
  20. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    Except Flynn is determined to restore humanity to life, so the chances of him choosing to die are basically non existent.

    How would him trying to survive a group of sociopaths make him a villain?

    He wouldn't be sacrificing for humanity if he lets them experiment on him, but rather he'd just be trying to not give a bunch of inbred psychopaths the chance to do their evil shit.

    I'm pretty sure that most people would agree that running away from the insane clutches of the Mage Association is a good thing to do.

    That's assuming that he's betrayed by anyone in Chaldea.

    Also that the ones they bring in fail, the author has changed some things from canon.

    Flynn has also worked with people who have harmed him in the past, like Nero, who enslaved him.

    True, some people may blame him for some bullshit reason, even though he kinda wanted to take them off life support.

    How was Roman supposed to know that they would go crazy?

    In case you've forgotten he's not a Servant, or a magic user, anymore, so he doesn't have any powers that would allow him to see the future.

    Yeah he may feel guilt, but he can also easily justify it to himself that at the time he didn't know it would turn out like that because there was virtually no indication.

    And you know what?

    He'd be right!

    When he argued for keeping them alive he didn't know that they would become crazy, he was just thinking of preserving the lives of people who were willing to fight and risk their lives for the safety of humanity, so he would have some very good reasons for keeping them alive.

    Ignoring how you post most likely violates rule 8, the no modern politics rule, here, you are wrong.

    Yeah people have been dicks throughout history, but there have also been kind and noble people throughout it that have fought for the lives of innocents and the oppressed.

    There have been times where in the worst hour people have shown themselves as being better than beasts.

    I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with your family, I wouldn't want that to happen to me or to others, but thinking that just because some people are bad means all people are bad is not helpful.

    It's not going to help you or anyone else.
     
  21. HelloThereItsMeGeralt

    HelloThereItsMeGeralt Getting sticky.

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    Let it be... Too many misunderstandings. Reason why I do not go to debates online. The thing is my post was showing how it can all go bad. And family, I have given specific conditions for my scenario.

    It is extremely easy to try and prove my facts wrong, because these things are not discussed, and kept unsaid. Yes, there are good persons, but not good people. Never good people. If you have seen, then you are beyond lucky. The dependance on "good" leaders is so bad that it is funny.

    About Crypters, my point is to show that people as a whole will always choose to blame someone rather than own up, which will influence the narrative. Even we players had no idea that something like that would have happened. So yes, Roman is right. Even Charles is right. But in long run, Roman's actions will be taken as a mistake and Charles would be considered as bad/evil/anti-social etc. I was not at all talking about Charles being right and Roman wrong. My focus was on narrative which I explained. Of course we do not care about narrative, but the side cast cares, because their actions towards MC are influenced and will be influenced by the overall narrative no?

    The first opposition is almost always family. A supportive family is rare man. Even when they want your best, it is not necessary that they will be supportive, possibly due to circumstance. Those noble people faced opposition from their family most of the time, especially during the formative years.

    I am thankful for your words, but you are hilariously wrong about me, sorry.

    Some not, almost everyone is bad. However, we must behave as if all are good unless proven otherwise; and prepare as much as possible if we are harmed in any manner. That means lying many many times and its another can of worms.

    Again so funny that my words were taken as-is and completely misinterpreted. But that allowed clarification.

    Charles has gone for realistic route, and IMO the only happy ending will be this will be a singularity for MC too. Basically when all is said and done, the events will be removed from MC's timeline so they never happened with MC anytime but the results remained with Nasuverse.

    As I said, lot of misunderstandings as well as lot of debates. Lets hope no one misunderstood these talks and reacted "appropriately".

    PS. Removing modern politics from here.
     
    Silver W. King likes this.
  22. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    I have to disagree on this since the people who followed those 'good leaders' can also be considered to be good people.

    Yeah they may not have been saints, but they still did a lot of good in their lives.
     
  23. Truck-Sama

    Truck-Sama An adventure awaits...

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    Dam, what an existential crisis Kingu went through there. Also Shakespear dam you scary, poor Kingu basically brainwashed, hopefully, he doesn't get summoned by Charles or the results will either be bloody or Flynn will play it off like a pro and pretend that he some mishap happened like the stage light broke and fell on his head and he's been in a coma for such a long time and great he can come to help out with the next play while diving into Chaldea's liquor supply for that drink he promised him.
     
  24. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    I think that Kingu was made by Tiamat and he's separate from Enkidu, who died.

    It's much more likely that Chaldea would summon Enkidu rather than Kingu.
     
  25. K70Amam()to

    K70Amam()to Legion of Badassitude Member #24601-Coom Raider

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    If any thing the cryptrer who would be the most understanding in my opinion would actually be Wodime, considering his plan...
    had it worked in his lost belt would have screwed over the outer god completely even though he wouldn't live to see it.
    mind you he might have some reservations on the methods of our mc, but the do what you can given the circumstances and use all you can to ensure victory style he uses. Wodime would at least understand the mind set that led him to the methods he emplo.ys
     
    Charles Flynn likes this.
  26. Luciel Ars

    Luciel Ars Know what you're doing yet?

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    FGO has too many plot holes
    1.) It has been hinted again and again that Chaldea is an organization with superior tech; but they were never able to detect Fou, Lev or Hinako.

    2.) After betrayal from Lev who was a top authority in Chaldea and inceneration of mankind, there was no vetting of the remaining human personnel's in Chaldea to check whether there were any sleeper agents.

    Personally I think Roman knew what was going on during the first phase of FGO and was aware of everyone's loyalties and was a bit uncomfortable with the inceneration of mankind and was ready to actively sabotage Chaldea but had a heel face turn moment when he started to get involved with the Chaldean staff (in game terms; Chaldea got max bond with Roman as such Roman stopped being a secret last boss and went ahead to have a Big Damn Hero moment)
     
  27. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    They would have most likely had abilities that allowed them to remain undetected. Lev was sent there to sabotage the place, so it would make sense if he could hide what he was from any sensors so he could be successful.

    The vetting may have been done off screen.

    I don't think Roman knew what was going to happen.

    He basically went there because his friend, who was also his Master when he was a Servant, created that organization to protect the world and Roman wanted to help people.
     
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  28. Luciel Ars

    Luciel Ars Know what you're doing yet?

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    Roman never did give up his authority as a Grand servant until he was replaced by Merlin
    A caster of Roman capacity must have had clairvoyance, which makes me doubt that roman was in dark for the whole of FGO phase 1
     
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  29. Darko

    Darko Experienced.

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    But he was turned into a human after he and his Master won the Holy Grail War.
     
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  30. onii-sama

    onii-sama Know what you're doing yet?

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    Roman had one last vision before he lost his Clairvoyance, iirc. That of humanity's... barbecuing. It's why he has the last of his 10 rings on his person.

    Also, iirc, he holds most everything to his chest, and to Da Vinci...'s chest. Or idk. Hey may have been skeptical of the people, but wanted to believe in the good of humanity instead.
     
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