Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

[Imperator Pax]

June 1922
There were pictures on the table, duplicates so that every man here could see them. The artillery were in pristine condition and were in parade paint. Unscuffed. They looked impressive in the black and white.

Zhang's Schneiders that had been delivered had been brought into Manchuria before the fighting had gotten underway. The problem was that the guns themselves had caused some confusion in the papers. The GPF 155 was a French gun but one the US had taken into service.... which was the detail which had likely lead to the confusion and then the uproar of complaints for those looking to support the position on the arms embargo John Jordan had bullied into position.

But of course the fighting was all but over by the time the news had actually gotten back to it, and the facts that the guns were French not American made wouldn't have changed anything. The French legation had agreed with John Jordan's arms embargo and then the French had turned around and sold Zhang the Schneiders. "Frankly I don't think we should be surprised."

There was shuffling, and the start of protests from some... but Waite was right from a historical standpoint, "The Taiping rebellion, the British consuls and the public back home. All this complaining is the same."

"Right." He replied and the ruffling of the other officers fell silent, "Its the same sort of thing... but the difference is we can do what we need."

"Will this effect the air force?" One of the newer men questioned. It was a good question. The Air Force much as with the prospect of the railway, and the school system enamored the public. It was shiny, and new and modern, and not decrepit which was the most important thing because it presented a contrast to the old dynasty and the failures of the contemporary Republic.

"No, surprisingly not." Waite replied, "Aircraft are not covered by the legation's idiocy." Nor tanks apparently, which was hilarious, "Much as with our automotive engineers we're going to need to entertain racing ideas, and while talk of metal hulls is talk, de Havilland has some ideas, the most practical of which is a twin engine monoplane with an enclosed cockpit. We have interim options available to us, but Britain will not interfere with aircraft options, even if we arm them."

Arming aircraft was an obvious future step. It remained true that the primary impediment to metal hulls was production, and weight limitations imposed by limited engine power. They would need more than a decade to where they could overcome that. The exiting theoretical underpinnings were were well established even if practical engineering concerns would hold back realistic production for time.

Besides of course the conception of aircraft in terms of practical utility was not dropping bombs at this stage, but rather when fitted with increasingly powerful radios the ability to relay falling shots from artillery. That was the driving objective of near term aircraft usage. Observation, and reconnaissance... and it was no surprise at all that the air service wanted more... and Allen knew to head that off before that argument started up for the umpteenth time, even if it meant bringing up the budget and the way they structured the budget.

"We will visit the practical capabilities in two years." He told the general, "In two years I expect a report on not just what we can build, but what is going on abroad, talk to Junkers, de Haviliand and outfits in the states." and he hoped that Sikorsky's demonstrator didn't get brought up again... it had been shown to the army and the navy back home, and while the agreement from the Navy's boys was it had potential, "But I am obliged to reiterate that engine production, of sufficiently robust and powerful engines will take years to build up." Further complicated by the mechanization of the existing rifle divisions and their brigades if it came to that. "That is the priority. Engine production."

1st​ and 3rd​ would take priority.

Then 8th​ under Shang, then2nd​ but 2nd's priority was increasingly looking to be a case of training and doctrine and working to expand the reserves of personnel to build up the pool of manpower they were doing. Most fighting men in the army would remain leg infantry even though they were not going to be requiring all recruits to attend the infantry basic training.

That itself had been an argument. Direct recruitment to 1st​ division required completion of the infantry basic school regardless of occupation but that was largely because the First Division expected to act as a firebreak in the event of a disaster. It was what the men spent their time in garrison drilling on, and the expectation of a call up came that there were going to be leadership ready to take charge.

1st​ and 3rd​ both had high fitness standards above the regular army standards. Division standards were being pushed. Being released to other units was the way the majority of transfers went to other units either officially or unofficially since the turnover rate was also used to staff units that were standing up; like the 9th Division. 3rd​Division under Lee had almost a non existent smoking culture, which Shellman had observed seemed to coincide with much better run times about nine minutes to a mile was the division average.

All of such material was being compiled as the summer wore on in anticipation of the Fall conference which would as normal convene the cadre, but also to bring together the lower house's membership. The lower house who would be holding elections come November.

The army though was coming to terms with the reality of fighting. Most fighting took place within three hundred yards, there were exceptions of course. 3rd​Division, and units posted to the Bashan Defensive Cordon along Szechwan routinely had to engage beyond that, and there was shooting down slope, which added further complications.

That was beyond the range of the submachine guns they were testing, but when it came to urban combat and close order battle Griswold's modifications provided the men a great comfort in city fighting. Those lost effectiveness in high brush country, the ridgelines of mountains, or the extended plains of the kansu corridor, Tibet, or the likely terrain of engagement against the Bolsheviks.

So there were competing arguments. The shortening of the rifle's barrel had already begun before even the European war. It had begun even earlier than they had been here. The adoption of the sword bayonet was driven by economics and political considerations, but also in recognition that bandits would foolhardily mount brazen cavalry charges of sabres and ponies. Swords and spears were common with bandits, as were older firearms.

That wasn't so much a shock. None of the cadre, none of the first cadre who had almost all had time in the Philippines had been surprised that hill folk would use weapons other than guns. Improvised weapons of all sorts were a fact of life. "We've been here a decade now."

He needed no reminding of that. The RPF had a brotherhood. Veterans gathered to commemorate that they were the first, the older brothers of the whole army even as Xian's papers celebrated its Air Force as a point of pride. Hui officers and their families held banquets to celebrate the death of Bai Lang just as earlier in the year Xian had celebrated the defense of the city against the White Wolf, and the railway reaching the city.

Such were the traditions that had developed. A tradition that was reflected as they got closer to election season, and that with fall those men would go to the polls. Percy seemed to fret over the khaki ... or field gray electorate going to the polls.

 

[ATP]

I read,that chineese was not one language,but one alphabet/well,system of signs/ , becouse people in China keep to speak various languages till Mao,could only read what other wrote.

If it is true,then people of your China could take engliash as new major language here,and use their own in home.

About new planes - wait few years,you would get better ones.
Schneider 155mm - good idea.

 

[Faralis]

About new planes - wait few years,you would get better ones.

Click to shrink...

Getting just a few so they start familiarizing with the operation and collaboration with the other branches isn't a bad idea. Buying too many is though.

 

[ATP]

Getting just a few so they start familiarizing with the operation and collaboration with the other branches isn't a bad idea. Buying too many is though.

Click to shrink...

Agree.Maybe ten or so,for training pilots and other crewmembers.
They arleady produce Albatros C.5,it is enough for everytching they face there till 1930.

 

[Imperator Pax]

July 1922
It was summer, and that meant the summer exercises.

It was easy to to cajole the hold outs, to assuage their concerns about becoming too western that Jun was able to say ... often through intermediaries and publications that 'to aim for excellence' was neo Confucian, excellence in body, and the ability to 'read the wind' before firing a rifle at a target quite in the distance were martial virtues and daoist. Most of thosehold outs and grumbling were land owners and Jinshi degree holders who were too old and too unwilling to take positions within the army. She had to rely on the history of the wars against the taiping rebels of the south... which she admitted would have been much easier if the gangrenous appendage of Canton were the source of the present problem.

There was however another side to it. Her publication houses circulated tracts in support of the new government, supervised translations especially of books... and even printed the textbooks of the new compulsory education that was for children of both sexes. These publications were quick to remind all of the successes of the army, and the accomplishments of a benevolent government that built roads and provided flood and famine relief, that had taken steps to stave of the plague.

The degree holders, and the wealthy of villages also had no effective means of competing in raising other militias. Even the Ma had accepted that, and thus the State Arsenal and other auspiciously named factories produced magazine fed rifles, and provided uniforms for which all troops were armed, and could dispatch sword and spear armed bandits. There was no need to prohibit or try to prohibit the ownership of arms by the peasants because the army of Xian, with its red dragon banner also could produce its own artillery making them even more frightfully well armed compared to whatever village militias could bring together in the south in Szechwan.

The education and the bringing in of men into the army established an example for her publications to put forward. Reminding all readers that the army was strong, and security would follow. The franchise that was the right to vote in the coming election was another matter as well. There were educational attainment standards expected and in some cases required for new local magisterial positions, the new bureaucracy was growing but still nascent.

Tao Jun did not hold a seat in the cadre, but she didn't need one. There were fools who might have complained if they were more public about the properties and companies she owned under her own name but whose eyes saw nothing beyond the surface... and were too occupied with the broader, louder movements. She put the pen aside, "You are speaking of raising Cavalry Regiments."

John Allen Forrest reached up to unsnap the button of his collar as he spared a look at the clock, "Yeah, we are. Mechanization is a major interest, of course," He replied... the deal with Ford a major concern, "Cavalry in the doctrinal sense will be American. There will be Cavalry Brigades as combined arms units," Which as Jun understood would have been called Legions in his Grandfather's day. "The Cavalry regiment will be mechanized infantry equipped with motor vehicles as reconnaisance and security element for the main force of battle."

"You should take Augustus," She counselled, their first born understood English, and had a mastery of a few thousand characters written, and he had been taught Morse code for the telegraph, but the boy was a font of unrestrained energy who needed a physical outlet. "He likes cars." She continued which was an understatement.

"He'll like airplanes better, I imagine."

"An aeroplane cannot hold ground, you cannot police a land from the sky." And yet, she recognized she had also published in support of an independent air force... just as she would advocate for this new cavalry branch, both for the prestige cavalry as an idea conveyed, and for the modernity of its use of automobiles. Those could easily make impressive pictures in the newspaper, even though she recognized that would tweak the nose of those who supported the arms embargo.

--
Cullen's dress uniform was functionally identical to the regular Army... except that it was black. It carried otherwise the same pockets, and at his throat was stitched the red dragon wrapping around the collar, emblematic of the General Staff members of any service. His sleeves held the Austrian knots in gold braid, "The Fords are mounting the improved 1917 Machine Guns behind gun shields, Waite is talking about doing more testing with the angles," What would become known to posterity as the Virginia Plate Tests.

What distinguished Cole's Gendarmes were the acquisition of his artillery park. Three inch guns filled his lighter pack contingent, but building off the older tsarist arsenal were 120mm and 122mm guns instead of the army standard 150mm or the newer larger 155mm being taken into service by 1st​ Field Artillery Brigade. The nearest comparative unit of the regular army was the 3rd​ Rifle Division whose artillery park was largely field artillery of the mountain gun sort, coupled with an abundant supply of mortars of various weights; including the first batches of new 120mm tubes.

"How does this effect the fighting strength of the Commandoes?" He asked.

Cullen mulled over it, in consideration of the 6 Battalions of his 1st​ Brigade, "I won't say it doesn't, certainly it does reduce infantry dismount strength... in real terms to about five hundred men in a battalion." What he actually meant was riflemen. The consensus that had been reached early was that any mechanized infantry force while still being 13 men could not dismount 13 men without losing the vehicle they were aboard. 13 men was hard to control, but it was potentially a lot of firepower if it could be brought to bear. A driver, and vehicle gunner, whether that was the 1 pdr, the 25mm or the Browning machine gun... or any other vehicle mounted weapon was plain. "We're dismounting typically about nine men as the fighting element." Cole replied, "Testing shows a greater alacrity in my boys to fight with that number, splitting into two groups with the vehicle being a base of fire on the enemy, and a point where wounded can be pulled back to."

In infantry terms about five hundred was about the total size of a Qing style battalion would have been all up... but as they had seen that was rarely the truth. Part of that was a matter of money, and corruption, and the tax base... it was about the strength of institutions. "Its more than that, a motivated soldiery is important but we have to be confident that there is a broader commitment, the economy has to grow to continue to support the army, and the people have to have a confidence in the men they chose to address their issues."

"I know that the next round of elections have to go without a hitch, but I'm skeptical that Peking is going to have elections, John." Cullen replied making an erratic gesture with his hand in frustration, "I can talk about public safety till i'm blue in the face, but this dust up between Cao Kun and Zhang its made a mess of things." It was just the latest problem, "It doesn't help Duan was involved either," Or Zhang Xun for that matter, "I don't like the talk I'm hearing from Li, of inviting the south back."

"You think they'll even come up?"

"I reckon so," Cullen replied, "Sun's getting thrashed I expect he'll cut and run back to Japan Li wants to bring them back." Waite wasn't going to like that, which was further noted. "He wants to reduce the strain on the budget by reducing the size of the army, but I don't see that talk going anywhere the army appropriations are what stirred up the fight between Zhili and Fengtien he may just kick it off again," Which would not make the brits happy since they'd been the ones who'd gotten the ball rolling on both the ceasefire and the current talks about financing a reorganization of finances even though they probably supported downsizing the army.
Yuan would have supported trying to down size the army, "Its not going to be popular," He agreed, "But yeah the brits will like it." He'd heard enough to know how things were going to go, the Brits were downsizing," But we also know that they're cruising towards a repeat, or even worse disaster, of not having the manpower or the tooling when the next fight goes out. What do we do?"

"Peking doesn't fund us, never have, don't get me wrong we're beiyang in the sense that you ask anyone that," They'd been with Yuan Shikai at the fall of the old Dynasty, there to see him fail to establish a new one, at his funeral... talks with Cao Kun and Duan Qirui, through the Manchu restoration, "What we do is unlikely to effect Peking's expenditures... and the agreement was that regardless of who was president the taxes we pay," the agreement with Duan Qirui,"goes to the treasury office in Peking..."

"I sense a but there, Cole?"

"But, the problem brother john is that Duan called for elections and we sent men from the provinces...and Li is talking about bringing the first session parliamentarians back... that's not gonna sit well with them. They're gonna complain."

"Waite?"

"Is pissed, he already didn't like Li coming back," His words had been it wasn't how to run a government... but the institutions weren't there, "I think what he'll do is to try and bring our federal representatives back into the legislature in the november election... and that could have repercussions."

 

[ATP]

It seems,that you would have kind of IFV here before tanks.Good,it would be useful.
russian 122 mm howitzer - they were either Krupp or Schneider,you could develop both.Would be better then 105mm.

120mm mortars - are you making them before french did? good,now you could sell it to entire world.

 

[Imperator Pax]

It seems,that you would have kind of IFV here before tanks.Good,it would be useful.
russian 122 mm howitzer - they were either Krupp or Schneider,you could develop both.Would be better then 105mm.

120mm mortars - are you making them before french did? good,now you could sell it to entire world.

Click to shrink...

The idea to actually to make a 120mm mortar predates Brandt the only reason it took as long as it did to get into production is because of Ten Year and lack of expenditure the US, UK, France all talked about in the last years of the war doing bigger mortars based on Stoke's mortar design and they all eventually went through with it, it was just getting money to do it from their respective treasuries. The US does a lot of its pioneering research through its signals corp and chemical corp in the post war years to get around congress not given the arsenals funding after the war ended.

So the idea was out there it just took time and money for governments to translate ideas into production. Also infantry doctrine comes into effect the French were in the thirties much more willing to pursue Brandts design than the US was (the US had other priorities and didn't feel as pressured to push development of heavier mortars until later), but the idea is actually from before the armistice and with a lot of things in this timeline its having a government that is willing to spend money modernizing its army with the stuff that was new.

This gets us to the Krupp Howitzers 122mm both themand the Schneider were good howitzers which as short barrelled field guns go is because of their mobility these don't get develop into Self Propelled guns, where as the 10.5CM Krupp does, but thats because of early turret weight limitations for traversing in a mobile gun capacity. The 122mm guns are being towed by tractors and dropping suppressive HE for large area shrapnel effect, and thats their main utility at this point in time and realistically that doesn't meaningfully change until the late thirties.

Because again this the interwar period no one is trying to airlift or make air mobile artillery at this point so thats not a consideration and thats why for mountain infantry and their artillery parks 105 is competitive but 122 is still a viable desirable option, and thats why both continue to show up until specialization of both weapons occur later on as production shifts.

This goes into IFV development, Xian's principle lesson is that tracked vehicles while useful are less fuel efficient, and more maintenance intensive, so part of the lesson that comes out of this, in North China it makes more sense even with road quality to use something with 4+ Wheels carrying a medium or heavy squad weapon of some sort (7.92mm Machine gun, 1PDR, 25MM autocannon) to support infantry in movement than trying to fit in a tracked vehicle those same qualifications Once that infantry carrying capacity is eliminated for say self propelled guns, tracked vehicle for protected firepower makes more sense because those aren't going to be operating independently (Xian's 'tanks' as they become developed are developed by the artillery service, and we will get to that later on) but again we're talking development into the 30s

 

[ATP]

The idea to actually to make a 120mm mortar predates Brandt the only reason it took as long as it did to get into production is because of Ten Year and lack of expenditure the US, UK, France all talked about in the last years of the war doing bigger mortars based on Stoke's mortar design and they all eventually went through with it, it was just getting money to do it from their respective treasuries. The US does a lot of its pioneering research through its signals corp and chemical corp in the post war years to get around congress not given the arsenals funding after the war ended.

So the idea was out there it just took time and money for governments to translate ideas into production. Also infantry doctrine comes into effect the French were in the thirties much more willing to pursue Brandts design than the US was (the US had other priorities and didn't feel as pressured to push development of heavier mortars until later), but the idea is actually from before the armistice and with a lot of things in this timeline its having a government that is willing to spend money modernizing its army with the stuff that was new.

This gets us to the Krupp Howitzers 122mm both themand the Schneider were good howitzers which as short barrelled field guns go is because of their mobility these don't get develop into Self Propelled guns, where as the 10.5CM Krupp does, but thats because of early turret weight limitations for traversing in a mobile gun capacity. The 122mm guns are being towed by tractors and dropping suppressive HE for large area shrapnel effect, and thats their main utility at this point in time and realistically that doesn't meaningfully change until the late thirties.

Because again this the interwar period no one is trying to airlift or make air mobile artillery at this point so thats not a consideration and thats why for mountain infantry and their artillery parks 105 is competitive but 122 is still a viable desirable option, and thats why both continue to show up until specialization of both weapons occur later on as production shifts.

This goes into IFV development, Xian's principle lesson is that tracked vehicles while useful are less fuel efficient, and more maintenance intensive, so part of the lesson that comes out of this, in North China it makes more sense even with road quality to use something with 4+ Wheels carrying a medium or heavy squad weapon of some sort (7.92mm Machine gun, 1PDR, 25MM autocannon) to support infantry in movement than trying to fit in a tracked vehicle those same qualifications Once that infantry carrying capacity is eliminated for say self propelled guns, tracked vehicle for protected firepower makes more sense because those aren't going to be operating independently (Xian's 'tanks' as they become developed are developed by the artillery service, and we will get to that later on) but again we're talking development into the 30s

Click to shrink...

Thanks for answer!

I always wondered,why nobody except finns mass produced 120mm mortars before 1939,thanks for answer.

Here,with your China using it at least 15 years before WW2,most countries should mass produce it,too.Not game-changer,but would certainly help,and replace infrantry guns.

122mm howitzers - in future you could just copy soviet approach,develop Schneider construction and made D.30 before war.The same range as 105mm,/slighty better/ ,but better warhead.
Here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_M1938_(M-30)&ved=2ahUKEwjEgNrNmeKKAxXUR1UIHaJ0E_MQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2EInHtwPoCr3EHfOzhg3pg

Your IFv are most changing idea - if everybody else start making them before WW2 start,it could change battlefield.
Self propelled guns - another thing which should be mass-produced by many countries before WW2.
According to what i read,they were much cheaper then tanks with the same weigh,and could have bigger gun.Ideal for supporting infrantry,if you ask me.

 

[Imperator Pax]

The problem with IFV catching on before the war is the same reason mortars didn't really take off, after the war between budgetary restrictions and the official histories being written Arsenals (the official government arsenal systems) largely had their officers dig in their heels about which new things they were going to pursue, and this will show up when we do get to tanks and fighting vehicles with regards to the Brits inviting people to come look at stuff in the thirties and how their doctrine impacted others. [This is also the same era where both the RN, and USN/US Army tested early cruise missiles but CEP was so bad they were forgone funding until after WW2 (and the V2 scare)]

Most of your arsenals constrained by Treasury / budgetary departments didn't have the money to spend on larger mortars and were under pressure from the artillery service/branch of their respective armed services to preserve classical artillery pieces which were 'instrumental' in their arguing to the necessary rolling bombardments that 'won the war'. Its really a 1925 who has the money to do this, theoretically the UK, and US both could have afforded it with their existing infrastructure, but neither Treasury nor Congress wanted to spend the money. [This is also the era where Eisenhower goes on a cross country tour, and decides 'our roads are shit'... which doesn't really get fixed until he's president after Truman because its only at that point he has the political capital to fix the problem]

The Finns choice to pursue heavy mortars was a monetary one, they didn't have the industry or built up artillery service to support large heavy traditional howitzers but mortars are cheap, and their explosive potential is good in terms of suppressing an enemy force in the open. (A 120mm mortar is lethal to 40+ meters of burst [varies by warhead and charge], thats not much less than 155mm, though conventional artillery is going to much safer out in the distance lobbing that shell) an 120mm mortar is still light enough to be broken down and jumped with, so it has obvious pros if your constrained by budget and available other logistical resources

 

[ATP]

The problem with IFV catching on before the war is the same reason mortars didn't really take off, after the war between budgetary restrictions and the official histories being written Arsenals (the official government arsenal systems) largely had their officers dig in their heels about which new things they were going to pursue, and this will show up when we do get to tanks and fighting vehicles with regards to the Brits inviting people to come look at stuff in the thirties and how their doctrine impacted others. [This is also the same era where both the RN, and USN/US Army tested early cruise missiles but CEP was so bad they were forgone funding until after WW2 (and the V2 scare)]

Most of your arsenals constrained by Treasury / budgetary departments didn't have the money to spend on larger mortars and were under pressure from the artillery service/branch of their respective armed services to preserve classical artillery pieces which were 'instrumental' in their arguing to the necessary rolling bombardments that 'won the war'. Its really a 1925 who has the money to do this, theoretically the UK, and US both could have afforded it with their existing infrastructure, but neither Treasury nor Congress wanted to spend the money. [This is also the era where Eisenhower goes on a cross country tour, and decides 'our roads are shit'... which doesn't really get fixed until he's president after Truman because its only at that point he has the political capital to fix the problem]

The Finns choice to pursue heavy mortars was a monetary one, they didn't have the industry or built up artillery service to support large heavy traditional howitzers but mortars are cheap, and their explosive potential is good in terms of suppressing an enemy force in the open. (A 120mm mortar is lethal to 40+ meters of burst [varies by warhead and charge], thats not much less than 155mm, though conventional artillery is going to much safer out in the distance lobbing that shell) an 120mm mortar is still light enough to be broken down and jumped with, so it has obvious pros if your constrained by budget and available other logistical resources

Click to shrink...

Thanks !
So,lack of money.
I read,that in case of Poland,becouse of lack of money we:
1.Stopped work on new 100mm howitzers/75mm fieldguns,so in 1939 we had only prototypes
2.Stopped production of 75mm AA guns,so in 1939 we had only 44.
3.Produce many short range one engine recon planes which was not good on anytching,but were cheap.Like Lublin R.13
4.Produced light ,one engine bombers.

Speaking about light bombers - England and Japan mass produced them before WW2 for the same reason - they were cheap.I hope,that your China would avoid it.

And, about 120mm mortars - we were interesting case,we had money for it,buy french prototypes,but instead mass produce them built polish prototype which was artillery piece,not real mortar,and worst then french prototype.
All becouse it would be polish.
One of many stupid things we did before WW2.We wasted a lot of money for unknown reasons.

 

[Imperator Pax]

In term of light bombers

It basically goes like this: Xian has the Albatross already, that and variants of see some strike role service against Chiang's Northern Expedition, and in the anti bandit conflicts in Szechwan's border areas before that..

The mosquito or rather an earlier variant there of is Xian's main development in the 'light bomber' capacity, and calling a Mosquito version a light bomber is speaking relatively, and its precursor technologies are already being worked on that being the composite airframe which the Albatross already used, its a matter of building an aircraft with one set of wings, sufficiently powerful twin engines

The Boeing B 17 does not begin flight testing earlier but it is supported as a private venture {again the USAAF didn't pursue it originally for basically bureaucratic reasons} and thus is available for production and is Xian's principle heavy bomber of the war which is replaced by a pressurized version and then other options as aircraft manufacturing technology matures as the war continues.

 

[ATP]

In term of light bombers

It basically goes like this: Xian has the Albatross already, that and variants of see some strike role service against Chiang's Northern Expedition, and in the anti bandit conflicts in Szechwan's border areas before that..

The mosquito or rather an earlier variant there of is Xian's main development in the 'light bomber' capacity, and calling a Mosquito version a light bomber is speaking relatively, and its precursor technologies are already being worked on that being the composite airframe which the Albatross already used, its a matter of building an aircraft with one set of wings, sufficiently powerful twin engines

The Boeing B 17 does not begin flight testing earlier but it is supported as a private venture {again the USAAF didn't pursue it originally for basically bureaucratic reasons} and thus is available for production and is Xian's principle heavy bomber of the war which is replaced by a pressurized version and then other options as aircraft manufacturing technology matures as the war continues.

Click to shrink...

Well,Albatros C.5 could take 200kg bombs,so formally it was light bomber.
B.17 would be nice to have - medium bombers,like He-111 were in my opinion waste of money - every modern figfhter could schoot them,even our obsolate P.11 in 1939,if they manage catch to them and found without escort.

So,better start from B.17 and some dive bomber.
Dive bomber with two engines,like soviet Pe-2 or Ar-2. later Tu-2.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Well,Albatros C.5 could take 200kg bombs,so formally it was light bomber.
B.17 would be nice to have - medium bombers,like He-111 were in my opinion waste of money - every modern figfhter could schoot them,even our obsolate P.11 in 1939,if they manage catch to them and found without escort.

So,better start from B.17 and some dive bomber.
Dive bomber with two engines,like soviet Pe-2 or Ar-2. later Tu-2.

Click to shrink...

Originally, it was probably two years ago because I was working on the Gurps esque WW2 destroyermen side story, looking at the BT but even then thats pretty late as a dive bomber, and the B 17 could be pursued commercially as a venture especially with its role as an anti submarine land based patrol aircraft with the MAK gearing up anticipating a re run of the first world war convoy situation after Hitler comes to power but finding and developing a good dive bomber basis won't really be a priority until the late twenties after Chiang's northern expedition, because by that point the Albatross will be showing its age.

 

[Imperator Pax]

July 1922
They had a few more weeks before they really needed to have things finalized for going into the usual fall conference... and then this year there would be the elections to consider as well as reporting on the summer drill. As it was th Congress were talking about what needed to still be done on their end even as they also used it to complain about Peking. The cadre though dealt places far further than Peking. There were international trade considerations to think about

Powell's report was a grand document that come via courier who had sailed from San Francisco Bay. It spoke of certain 'Scientific Certainties' relying on such claims to buttress the ambition of a man who had largely been abroad and skipping from office to office of the cadre the majority of the last ten years. What he was insisting was that the success of Middle America, and indeed Liberia as if that program were already approved, was to make good on the flight of human capital from Europe, and to encourage immigration from Japan and China as well... though Powell did also touch on the need to appoint executives, secretaries of offices like the executive branch back in the states.

"He's fascinated with a million." Waite remarked one hand holding up pages as he he skimmed, no doubt having read yet another reference to Ford's quip of a million of anything is a great many.

The number applied to everything. Millions of dollars, but also that in order to breach the threshold for a 'certain' economic boon there needed to be a million people metropolis. He sighed the likes of Zhengzhou, and Xian in order to support their industry. A million tons of steel, and coal, and so forth. Powell hoped to entice Americans of course to come abroad to middle America, he also hoped to supersede Argentina as the desired destination for Italians leaving that old country. He wanted Poles, and Germans, and the Baltic folks to come and move to the tropical countries to build farms and erect and work factories.

That included a package to sway the old German colonies to pack up and leave the Brits behind and to come and make new farms of coffee in addition to the rubber growing in Liberia he had in mind. "My understanding is that with state and with Jack," Morgan the younger, "Couple that with Ford and the Tire man, with coffee and so forth," Dawes continued outlining diversification plans, "I think he can swing the numbers for this outline, but he will be on the line for a lot of credit if he can't get this central american project of his under one flag." That would be the chanciest thing. Guatemala and Honduras both tied up a lot of work on the railway work, but that work was on schedule and that expanded industrial farming efforts that was able to still be profitable. "But its got other risks, Powell does want to encourage more people to come over, but we need the states to block France especially." But going for him was that the four countries involved all wanted investment and railways to the point of promising concessions if the work could be done and that made State happy.

"It shouldn't be a problem," In November of 1913, Teddy Roosevelt had smoozed to the Argentine elite that they needed no protection from European predations, that they were capable and had the means by masculine virtue to extend their own monroe doctrine from Buenos Aries which was as Powell couldn't help but observe was a fifth of the country's population. "Especially if you look at the prospectus."

Powell was advocating close ties with all the English speaking countries of course. That was to include England. He hoped to convince the still infant central american republic to speak to other nations in the south of the Americas including argentina of common arms.... but also that the central American republic would need both a navy and merchant marine. The cadre had no experience making naval armor plate without the Naval Treaty and if the war in Europe had still been going on they might have gotten a foot in the door but they didn't, hadn't.

Such were grand dreams Allen was skeptical of. He didn't think Powell had the resources to carry that off at this stage, but the prospect of the wood necessary for making airplanes effectively, well that was a different story. The prospect of large rubber growing and increased mechanization through the deal with Ford all of that had potential... but the majority of the machinery Powell was going to buy was going to come from the United States, that as no secret. Unless they could really make good on the composite construction of the Albatross, and apply that to more airplanes

Cullen's boots scuffed on the floor as he stood up, "What he's failing to state is that most of this started while he was in the states, he was talking to House, and the State Department as well... probably House first before Bryan left and then as Lansing showed more sense ..." Both House, and Lansing had lost influence as the Virginian had become more addled as the end of the war turned into the morass of trying to affirm a peace, "to deal with Latin America. From what I've been able to determine, there was nothing about Africa when he pushed off to Guatemala, that's new."

"What is the news on that front?"

"Honduras was a bit of a given," Cole replied, "El Salvador I get the feeling regardless of how Washington feels they're not quite as keen on it" Cullen's instincts would prove accurate... and of course regardless of how State wanted a unified central american republic there were to be delays, and regional differences... but capital and the railway that it built would bring together three of the four countries. "Now that being said, they don't dislike the other benefits, they're buying guns from our export people including being interested in the German trading house," Out of Bremen, but which serviced Austria, Hungary, the Czechs and so on, "I don't think they'll agree to the extent of what Powell and his friends want for a unified state."

Guatemala, Honduras, and then Nicarguaas the decade welled on... "Honduras?"

"The government there has matched Guatemala's railway concession rights. The RPF is expected to reach divisional strength next year." Cullen answered, "currently there are two brigades, the Honduras based element," He deferred pausing before saying he'd have the report passed along, "Suffice to say Powell has been been recruiting but he's splitting time with Africa..."
"But its working?"

"Yes... a certain yankee is throwing around," The name of, "Ward and," words like "Filibuster a lot." He shrugged, "But Powell should be able to finish the line to 'Tegu on schedule, which will directly link Guatemala city via our tracks... and State will be very happy when that happens." Dynamite was a great thing, Nobel deserved more credit for that than any fool medal, but the Swedes could be a bit queer at times.

"I suppose we should be glad, that Powell has things in hand, and he's close enough the bastard is being attention to his antics," Allen replied to Waite's commentary on the situation. "What does Powell make of the Brit's air police idea?"

"No more positive than what we do," Cullen replied, "You need boots on the ground to exercise any kind of order, the air craft can tell us what they can see, but we have to be there to make calls locally."



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Notes: General Notation for updates this is going up early we're projecting snow, (not ussually a problem) but also an ice storm so it is very possible I will lose power which will potentially disrupt updates then tomorrow and Saturday will like be eminence in shadow and the litrpg storywhich i'm still working on, and then sunday if I have power I will update Battletech archon monday, etc, and probably last week of the month I'll resume updating Essence of VIltrumite.

 

[ATP]

Originally, it was probably two years ago because I was working on the Gurps esque WW2 destroyermen side story, looking at the BT but even then thats pretty late as a dive bomber, and the B 17 could be pursued commercially as a venture especially with its role as an anti submarine land based patrol aircraft with the MAK gearing up anticipating a re run of the first world war convoy situation after Hitler comes to power but finding and developing a good dive bomber basis won't really be a priority until the late twenties after Chiang's northern expedition, because by that point the Albatross will be showing its age.

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Thanks ! and,you do not need anytching better then Albatross before,let say,1930.
But - dive bombers,two-engine if possible,should be built after that.

Chapter - did they build that railroad in OTL ?

 

[Imperator Pax]

Thanks ! and,you do not need anytching better then Albatross before,let say,1930.
But - dive bombers,two-engine if possible,should be built after that.

Chapter - did they build that railroad in OTL ?

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United Fruit did built part of the railway line Guatemala it connected to El Salvador in 1929 using narrow gauge, here what would b e the Central American International Railway is a much more substantive wide gauge track because of capital investment and there are fewer delays historically there was (as was typical of these things, a lot of talk, and support espoused for these projects the post war economic recession stymied a lot of the investment for such and caused significant delays leading to much less track being laid than originally planned) but thats very much the history of railway projects in general..

 

[ATP]

United Fruit did built part of the railway line Guatemala it connected to El Salvador in 1929 using narrow gauge, here what would b e the Central American International Railway is a much more substantive wide gauge track because of capital investment and there are fewer delays historically there was (as was typical of these things, a lot of talk, and support espoused for these projects the post war economic recession stymied a lot of the investment for such and caused significant delays leading to much less track being laid than originally planned) but thats very much the history of railway projects in general..

Click to shrink...

Thanks! since it was United Fruit,they probablt stolen local lands to do so.
But,it is nice to see changes other then military in your TL.

Speaking about military changes - you arleady introduced 120mm moratars and IFV,and would introduce assault guns and B.17 before WW2.
It should not change how it end,but germans ,if they made all of it/well,not B.17 but some german heavy bomber,Ju 89 for example/ they could fight better and longer.

They must lost thanks to Hitler,but if they lost later,soviets would get less here.For example,they would certainly get Baltic,Polans,Romania and Czech as in OTL.but Hungary,Yugoslav and maybe Bulgary could remain free.

Which mean changes after 1991 - we could have Hexagonale as real power in Central Europe,not german EU.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Thanks! since it was United Fruit,they probablt stolen local lands to do so.
But,it is nice to see changes other then military in your TL.

Speaking about military changes - you arleady introduced 120mm moratars and IFV,and would introduce assault guns and B.17 before WW2.
It should not change how it end,but germans ,if they made all of it/well,not B.17 but some german heavy bomber,Ju 89 for example/ they could fight better and longer.

They must lost thanks to Hitler,but if they lost later,soviets would get less here.For example,they would certainly get Baltic,Polans,Romania and Czech as in OTL.but Hungary,Yugoslav and maybe Bulgary could remain free.

Which mean changes after 1991 - we could have Hexagonale as real power in Central Europe,not german EU.

Click to shrink...

The railway originally or was talked in the late 19th century, and even at that point there were talks about a railway that would run the length of the contintent running through mexico and down to argentia (this would be revived later as the Pan American Highway which when it was completed runs now from Alaska to Argentina) as after Panama's independence and then the canal being opened plans for the railway from Texas through Mexico stalled out , but United Fruit was brought inby the goverments to build railways run the mail service do a bunch of other stuff and in return got lucrative concessions out of it before ww1 then ww1 happened and things were put on the back burner until after the post war slow down and then ww2 happened and then cold war happened so fits and starts in terms of the planned railway would have been much much more of grandiose project.

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the IFVs aren't ready yet, thats why they're still callled combat cars I wouldn't really call them true IFVs until the 25mm is belt fed reliable, and the B 17 thats feasible since it really should have been purchased in numbers by procurement services it was the most promising aircraft in the mid thirties trials.

As for post II borders the Czechs probably make it into the western block in 45, we've talked about that previously, and really without the ability to just drain manpower from siberia or hard currency being abundant Stalin, and ZHukov are going to suffer higher casaulties in their offensives once the germans are on the back foot. I agree that Romania is probably screwed but we will get more into that as we move into the thirties and with other pressures within the state department. Hungary is up in the air. Then post war war with a non communist china the Asian version of the martial plan has long term economic implications for the cold war massive implications

 

[ATP]

The railway originally or was talked in the late 19th century, and even at that point there were talks about a railway that would run the length of the contintent running through mexico and down to argentia (this would be revived later as the Pan American Highway which when it was completed runs now from Alaska to Argentina) as after Panama's independence and then the canal being opened plans for the railway from Texas through Mexico stalled out , but United Fruit was brought inby the goverments to build railways run the mail service do a bunch of other stuff and in return got lucrative concessions out of it before ww1 then ww1 happened and things were put on the back burner until after the post war slow down and then ww2 happened and then cold war happened so fits and starts in terms of the planned railway would have been much much more of grandiose project.

--
the IFVs aren't ready yet, thats why they're still callled combat cars I wouldn't really call them true IFVs until the 25mm is belt fed reliable, and the B 17 thats feasible since it really should have been purchased in numbers by procurement services it was the most promising aircraft in the mid thirties trials.

As for post II borders the Czechs probably make it into the western block in 45, we've talked about that previously, and really without the ability to just drain manpower from siberia or hard currency being abundant Stalin, and ZHukov are going to suffer higher casaulties in their offensives once the germans are on the back foot. I agree that Romania is probably screwed but we will get more into that as we move into the thirties and with other pressures within the state department. Hungary is up in the air. Then post war war with a non communist china the Asian version of the martial plan has long term economic implications for the cold war massive implications

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Yes,normal China,and also free siberian states.I quess,that they become clients of either USA or your China.
Thuse soviets could not start korean war here.
Since Sralin would definitelly attack somebody,i bet on Yugoslavia or Turkey,they would be easier to conqer.And USA would fight soviets there.
Maybe Iran? Iran had obsolate army,soviets could take over them,too,unless USA would help.

P.S IFV with 25mm gun - till 1939 it would be good enough for light tanks,and even later could destroy side armour of medium tanks.
By the end of the war,probably everybody would use them - althought soviets with 23mm gun instead.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Yes,normal China,and also free siberian states.I quess,that they become clients of either USA or your China.
Thuse soviets could not start korean war here.
Since Sralin would definitelly attack somebody,i bet on Yugoslavia or Turkey,they would be easier to conqer.And USA would fight soviets there.
Maybe Iran? Iran had obsolate army,soviets could take over them,too,unless USA would help.

P.S IFV with 25mm gun - till 1939 it would be good enough for light tanks,and even later could destroy side armour of medium tanks.
By the end of the war,probably everybody would use them - althought soviets with 23mm gun instead.

Click to shrink...

i personally sus[ect iran as well

The rason for that is I think Turkey would rush into trying to join Nato over concerns of an aggressive soviet union and Tito is beyond the soviet's logistical means without several years to prepare the USSR could in theory try but pushing into the balkans would be a very long logistical supply line and expose a broad european front so I figure given the soviet positions post II its probably a move into IRan if Stalin thinks he could get away with it like you say Turkey almost certainly gets both the UK and US involved, Yugoslavia it might but the UK in the late forties early fifties Stalin probably doesn't take a UK threat seriously regarding Iranian sovereignty.

 

[ATP]

i personally sus[ect iran as well

The rason for that is I think Turkey would rush into trying to join Nato over concerns of an aggressive soviet union and Tito is beyond the soviet's logistical means without several years to prepare the USSR could in theory try but pushing into the balkans would be a very long logistical supply line and expose a broad european front so I figure given the soviet positions post II its probably a move into IRan if Stalin thinks he could get away with it like you say Turkey almost certainly gets both the UK and US involved, Yugoslavia it might but the UK in the late forties early fifties Stalin probably doesn't take a UK threat seriously regarding Iranian sovereignty.

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As he should,becouse UK after WW2 was not longer serious threat against anybody but Argentina.
But,i think that Sralin would get half of country,just like with Korea OTL,becouse USA would send help.

Only good thing - no Chomeini.Well,not as ruler,he could be martyr in some gulag.
Pity,that it rather not happen to Turkey, if soviets take half of it Turkey neighbours would not have problems after soviet fall,like in OTL.

 

[Imperator Pax]

July 1922
The technical side of things extended deep into the army's organization as new Regiments were organized...and as they moved from the larger strategic organization of active and reserve. The latter tied inextricably to the greater comfort of the organization in governing provinces. The Regular Army was to supplemented by a Federal Reserve force, but also to support by National Guardsmen who in normal organization were to be a formal provincial militia that could be federalized when they needed to be called up... implementing that would take time on a divisional basis.

It was therefore only natural that Yan wanted to emphasize to his home province the National Guard to which the 4th​ Division was a part of. The 4th​ as an Infantry Division however spent a preponderance of its time on active duty or at least a significantly greater period of time than originally envisioned... but that was the problem with theoretical divisions of labor that technical papers drew up.

… and of course those papers were drawn up in schools of military sciences, office buildings, and in the permanent unit headquarters. Cullen expected to have ninety thousand full time gendarmes, that was to say nominal fighting strength, supported by a much smaller complement of reserves by the end the technocratic plan slated to conclude in 25 but part of that was to be a military college for training military police, intelligence, and civil affairs officers which would be multi-service. The compromise vote held that it would be training personnel from the Regular Army, the Guard, the Reserves, the Air Force, and the Gendarmes.

That had been accepted de rigeuer in the matter of usual votes. Doctrinal arguments given the motorization of troops the sub machine gun was an object of significant interest. As were self loading rifles. Rapidly mobile troops, and the close quarters fighting coupled with the ammunition requirements there were certain facts that were self evident to support the ideas.

"Now Federov's rifle besides the ammunition runs into the problem of the milling time." 6.5 SR as it was shorthand in technical nomenclature tables was already in Iseburo's inventory, and Iseburo's administrative center was much closer to a potential boleshevik swing. It was why he focused more on railway guns and coastal defenses... and it was why he was arguing with the army's air service insisting that any plane aloft needed to be able to direct his artillery, or any artillery. From the sound of it the army air group was bridling but had much bigger concerns than elsewhere. "Griswold is doing a lot of milling of course, but we can do a fair amount of the work on the Assault Phase Rifles with individual lathes," Especially since Lewis's Assault Phase rifle did away with the aluminum void shroud for cooling... the result was popularity with elite formations, with men who favored semi automatic fire over automatic and wanted the accuracy of a closed bolt.

"That's another thing," There was a pause, "The 1914 rifle followed existing trends," though frankly with the number of commercial Mausers they had had with turned down bolt handles though they hadn't at the time been talking about it, the consensus had been that having its turned down was better. "We've had some success licensing out the Service Rifle and Latin America," including south America, "will take what we can sell them from what Powell says... but money does become a problem for purchasing. We can offer replacements to their Maxim and Vickers guns, and we can sell them surplus, but Powell is sure that a fight is coming."

There was a rumbling of discontent at the conclusion of the cavalry man's caveat. There was, had always been concerns about what getting involved further afield might lead them into. The new governor of the Philippines was interested in a hand, but he wanted the Philippines a lot closer in a system to the States back home... which was fair. Wood was older than any of them and interests were well established from his in Cuba so there had been less concern there. "The State Department says there is a lot of work to be done there."

… and there was money to be made there. Allen paused, "The Honduras situation?" He asked aware it couldn't be just that, but Honduras had been the issue which had kept the original cadre on the fence for getting into the grandiose plans of railway development in central America before the expansion of the available capital made by the European War. "He expects there will be a fight,"

"And a boom in sales as a result." The cavalry man replied, and it went without saying that was expected to be good for them. "That's why he wants a bigger share of the ford trucks than planned, he says he plans to use them to hasten roadwork, but they're managing 8 and a half a day. That's not a bad pace at all... but he wants to lay down doubles and he wants to spur off as well. So he needs more machines to do that."

Waite, who accepted that they had gotten off of the initial topic of self loading rifles, and the issue of manpower entered the fray, "This central American republic project," And at the very least if they couldn't have that then a free trade zone and an expanded merchant marine based on snapping up US flagged shipping on the cheap from Uncle Sam. "He thinks that he can weld them all together if only he builds up roads and railways up and down the line, maybe build that big port while he's at it?"

The cavalry man shrugged, "That's what I've heard." He paused, "I don't know if he plans to transfer the fords, sell them what have you... or if they're actually intended for mechanizing," That would be mechanizing Powells much smaller body of manpower.

Part of the deal with Ford had been buying Ford products that had included both complete models being shipped assembled, automobiles that would be shipped to their own factories to be assembled, and spare parts. Powell was asking for are routing of the completed trucks to latin america... but he might end up looking at the latter if the project managed to get far enough along where it could support a local automotive industry. "Has Powell written up, or the MAK," more broadly, though there was no disputing Powell had a great deal more sway than any of the others in the cadre, "Written up an organization table for modernization?"

"Officially no, unofficially the North and South brigades will be reorganized into divisions soon is the word... which tells me that he has something on the triangle model." There was a pause and ruffling of papers, "He's put out a statement for a race blind army, and has attempted to hire demobilized troops from Europe and the states, offering to bring their families in, he's even promised to General Pershing that black troops will be treated the same as their white counterparts if Black Jack will encourage them to exert themselves. My understanding is the existing force is already fully integrated, and that that will be the norm going forward." Other than that Powell for the time being only wanted lighter field guns Three Inchers and 105s specifically to prevent him from having confusion in the supply, "I still think he has his work cut out for him... but we will see how things go over there."

"What are the plans for sending a party to Guatemala?"


There was a shrug, "We can send Carter, unless you want to ship him to England, but its complicated."

Allen acknowledged the point, Powell's project these last couple of years had been the right time. He'd gotten the capital in and then he'd been able to get the state department's blessing. The leadership in United Fruit had been wanting the railways built but just didn't have the resources to commit the project and certainly hadn't had it once the European War had begun... and that had stalled work on anything more than what they had already built. Now though well things were much busier for other reasons and Powell was moving to diversify.

 

[ATP]

Ford trucks - they were good,but not good enough to use without relatively good roads.
They need sometching more sturdy.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Ford trucks - they were good,but not good enough to use without relatively good roads.
They need sometching more sturdy.

Click to shrink...

THe irony is the solution for that already existed, Torsion bar suspension was developed for racing cars which is where [is the community] the cadre largely goes to for its automotive and aeronautics development so torsion bar becomes the default general suspension for everything until better things are viable for mass production and that would be after the cold war starts

 

[ATP]

THe irony is the solution for that already existed, Torsion bar suspension was developed for racing cars which is where [is the community] the cadre largely goes to for its automotive and aeronautics development so torsion bar becomes the default general suspension for everything until better things are viable for mass production and that would be after the cold war starts

Click to shrink...

And here,you could accidentally change History.German trucks failed on soviet roads,and that is one of main reasons why they do not win in 1941.
But,if germans actually had good trucks....Ford even had factory in Germany,never bombed by USAAF in OTL.

Of course, they could still lost to USA later,especially with Hitler genius,but it would be different world after war ended.