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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    'to be in'

    At least he's not a spiderfucker.

    Did not expect to see this.:D

    So does he know about paragons trip to Vega?

    'are you doing'

    Remove one 'you'
     
  2. gustyeagle

    gustyeagle Know what you're doing yet?

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    I don't get why he is just lifting people up to be shot. If he's having trouble lifting a person why not just use grenades?
     
  3. Silverias

    Silverias Getting sticky.

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    I think it was entirely for the psychological aspect.
     
  4. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    To show his power and demoralize the Legion by making them seem powerless.
     
  5. Ardy

    Ardy Not too sore, are you?

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    So he can show off to the wealthy heiress
     
  6. Z000

    Z000 If this is trash, then find me in the dumpster

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    sniper shot missing is even worse on their morale since they will be even more scare
     
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  7. gustyeagle

    gustyeagle Know what you're doing yet?

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    OK floating is very scary I guess...
     
  8. Silverias

    Silverias Getting sticky.

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    More "I can reach into your camp. Cover means nothing, you are never actually safe."
     
  9. Razorfloss

    Razorfloss Not too sore, are you?

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    It is when it happens out of fucking no where and you have no fucking idea what is happening. Imagine you are minding your own business in camp and then out of nowhere you get grabbed and can't see who or what has grabbed you. Now magnify that by how many people are in the camp and you have a recipe for something that breaks morale.

    Edit: there's a reason the legion commander is calling for an attack now. If he lets this fester in the ranks he has no chance.
     
  10. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    Think of it more as 'somewhere out there is someone that can pick you up like a child would pick up a toy and do whatever they like to you, including kill you. And you can't see them or know where they're from'.

    That's not just scary, it's downright horrifying.
     
  11. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker, Rookie Proofreader

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    Yes, please, do provide exposition for those of us not in the know. What's been happening, Krono? Still showing the lady around?

    Anything to put a stop to them bleeding them dry with 'protection' fees and taxation, eh? I'll bet the NCR troops barely had to do any fighting once word spread...

    That bad, huh? What better place, then? She can see how you kick the Legion's arses.

    Some things about geography never make sense. Especially ones soaked in Politics.

    Heh. The joy of bringing in a population who may not entirely like the way you're running things. Either they force you to change, or you take the harder route of making them change...

    So, something of a harsh stalemate. The NCR can't go out because of the defended positions the Legion have. Think World War I no man's land. While the Legion know that a frontal attack would end up dying painfully under artillery and sniper fire...

    Sounds nasty. I presume the Legion are not known for any measure of sneakiness, to attempt infiltration or subversion?

    Lanius being a big Legion hero who could persuade the forces arrayed across the river to try their luck by charisma or fear?

    Not unless you want a painful death at the end of the Legion's spears... Or assault rifles, maybe... I don't know what they use...

    Wait, what?

    Heh, not surprising. After the end, larger families would mean more hands to work fields or hunt for animals...

    Presumably this was Krono's real intention for coming here? Add a little 'family ties' into the mix of diplomacy?

    Well, basically yes. I mean, I have no idea of the details but clearly...

    Ah, some trustworthy testimonials to sweeten the deal.

    One of the few things I liked about the 'good guy' Emma Frost: Her vindictive streak combined with telepathic suggestion. As long as Krono doesn't implant a sexual urge towards some innocuous item...

    Heh, Perez is no idiot, I see. Krono did say he was escorting a foreign dignitary...

    So, how bad were the Legion actually at spying?

    Nice. He can guess exactly what Costa Del Sol turning against the legion would mean, I see.

    I get the feeling this is a nod to a companion from New Vegas?

    "You know what they call a flying soldier?"
    "Air support?"
    "Skeet."

    That must be a pretty weak hold at that range... But the implicit threat is still good...

    He missed? I guess that's realistic. Even the best snipers like time to line up their shots, and this is not time-friendly.

    And that is one hell of a message to send to the Legionnaires...

    I'm guessing they're a ways from the nearest shared border.

    Wow, some officer over there is a damned fool. I mean, they must know they've a high chance of dying before ever reaching any effective range...

    I'm guessing Krono wants to show off the NCR's general advantages over the Legion in this fight... Better soldiers, better gear, better tactics... What does the Legion have, besides stupid officers and foolhardy bravery?
     
  12. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    The character speaks with imperfect grammar.
    No.
    Because they're a couple of miles away, which is why the 1st Recon sniper missed his first shot. And the psychological aspect.
    I'm actually interested. Why is Baja California in a separate country to California?
    Oh no, on the contrary: the number 3 guy in the Legion specialises in that sort of attack. In Fallout: New Vegas there are plenty of Legion spies in the NCR and Mojave. And none at all the other way around.
    It's a common enough sentiment. But honestly, I'm not sure that Boone made the right decision.
    Manpower and devotion to the cause. Outside of the elite units NCR morale is rubbish.
     
  13. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    Rogal Dorn said it best.

    Dorn: This is accurate.
     
  14. Silverias

    Silverias Getting sticky.

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    This is...straining, just a little.

    The farthest confirmed kill sniper shot ever recorded, with a .50 caliber anti-material rifle is a little over two miles.

    Edit: Yes, I AM a nitpicking nerd.
     
  15. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    The term is 'pedant'.

    But that's fine. After checking a map I think the river is about 200 meters across where they are. Add a little room on either side and the shot was probably more like 500 meters.
     
  16. Silverias

    Silverias Getting sticky.

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    That was unnecessarily cruel, being all..accurate and shit.
     
  17. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    He was just being podantic.
     
  18. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Interesting that he seems to want to compare Baja to Arizona.

    You're actually told by Raul, someone who was there, that Arizona was such a horrible place that the Legion stepping in and restoring order is considered to be a welcome improvement.

    Anyways, there have been a couple of moments where the developers of New Vegas actually talked about what things were actually like in Legion territory. Mostly because they didn't get to actually show it in-game, and they wanted to stress that what you're seeing is the Legion in its war camps and their operations in a war zone.

    People living under the Legion are primarily inhabitants of non-tribal communities that existed before the rise of the Legion. In their territory (Arizona, New Mexico and other areas) the Legion enslaves tribes, with exceptions made to the organized settlements of the Mojave and NCR regions since they are considered war zones. People under Legion control are considered subjects, not members of the Legion proper.

    Lands under Caesar's protection enjoy stability and security far greater than lands outside its sphere of influence. Traders that have to cross NCR's territories with a guard contingent can safely travel on Legion trade routes alone, without fear of being raided.

    People who live in Legion towns enjoy a stable, consistent flow of electricity and water, a steady and ample food supply, and very low crime and corruption levels. They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities. However, if one keeps quiet, goes about their business and fulfills the rare request the Legion has, then Caesar is a peaceful and caring lord. Many people don't consider this a problem, as even before Caesar's rise, they had little say in the chaotic wastes.

    And the words of Sawyer . . .

    The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.

    While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.

    The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).

    In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).

    The stuff in spoilers both basically say the same thing. The first is more a summary of what has been said about the Legion and the second is Sawyer's actual words. There's other stuff that could be posted if people want more Legion info, but most of the stuff meant to flesh out the Legion got cut for time, including the original incarnation of Ulysses (who was meant to be the only companion that openly favored siding with the Legion). Instead we just get a few throwaway lines. Like Raul talking about how shitty Arizona was before the Legion came, or Cassidy and that one trader in The Fort, Dale Barton, saying that Legion territory is safer. With Dale even saying he prefers trading in Legion territory over trading in the NCR.

    ==============

    As for the stuff about Baja California . . . Well . . . There are a few reasons, but one big one.

    [​IMG]

    When it came time to negotiate with Mexico, the territory we wanted was essentially divided into primary, secondary, and tertiary objectives.

    The area in white is what we actually took, and was the primary objective.

    The bit of brown, marked as the Gadsden Purchase, we straight up bought later. That was mostly because we wanted to build a southern railroad that connected The South with the Pacific, but the original territorial gains were considered too mountainous. We literally only have that chunk of southern Arizona and New Mexico because it was easier to build a railroad there.

    The Baja Peninsula was the secondary objective. We've actually tried to purchase it a few times. Hell, American business interests once actually owned enough land in Baja that a single corporation based in Colorado effectively ran it as a shadow government, and if that had continued it probably would have been Americanized to the point that we'd have annexed it by now . . . But the Mexican government realized what was going on and basically nationalized everything to stop the process.

    As for the tertiary objective . . . There was also an interest in annexing all or most of Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas. (That said, there were some in The South who wanted to annex ALL of Mexico.)

    As for why we didn't?

    The territory we'd actually end up annexing was very sparsely populated, with the populated areas basically being concentrated in a few easy to manage locations. By comparison, Baja and the other territory south of the Rio Grande was a bit more heavily populated so there were concerns the people living there would be more annoying to deal with. Especially when Mexicans were actually still fighting in Baja and the people in the occupied territories were becoming increasingly frustrated by the presence of American soldiers.

    At the same time, the Mexican negotiators found out that Baja was only a secondary goal so they figured it was safe to dig in their heels on that and drag out the negotiations. Mostly because the war against Mexico wasn't actually all that popular in The North, because Northerners were afraid that The South would gain a bunch more slave states and shift the balance of power too far.

    The more the Mexicans refused, the more Polk, the President at the time, got annoyed with them. The more he got annoyed with them, the further he'd bump up the priority of the demands until he was basically demanding all of the claimed territory instead of what we actually took with Baja as a maybe.

    This carried its own risks, because as the negotiations dragged on for the better part of a year the Mexican people were also getting pretty pissed off at their own government and their were fears that those who wanted to just keep on fighting might come to power or even that Mexico might collapse into a state of anarchy or civil war. (At least nine Mexican states still had intact National Guards, and all of them had refused to recognize Santa Anna as their Commander-in-Chief during the war.)

    The American negotiator, Nicholas Trist, wanted to avoid that. He preferred a negotiated peace with defined borders and as few hard feelings as possible. The last thing he wanted was for America to just unilaterally take everything. Since he was resistant to Polk's increased demands, Polk actually ordered that he be recalled so the he could be replaced with someone who would demand everything.

    So Trist basically on his own initiative told the Mexican negotiators that a treaty had to be signed right then and there or Mexico would be in a lot of trouble, and so a treaty with only the primary objective being ceded was signed before the situation could get worse. This treaty was presented to Congress and ratified without being objected to by Polk due to the increasing unpopularity of the war with Mexico. Essentially, it was politically untenable to reject what Trist had negotiated and demand more from the Mexicans.

    So, uh, I guess the tl;dr of this is that the person chosen to represent America in the negotiations actually wanted to be fair to Mexico and acted on his own initiative to put together a treaty, in opposition to the President's own wishes on the matter, taking advantage of the political situation at home to basically force his preferred outcome.

    Though this wasn't without repercussions. Trist was immediately fired and wasn't paid for his time or the expenses incurred while negotiating in Mexico. He'd eventually get that pay in the decade following the American Civil War, but his political career never recovered and he was forever hated by those who thought we could have and should have taken more.

    And for what it's worth, I also think it's incredibly fucking stupid that we didn't take the Baja Peninsula. I could take or leave the other demanded territories.
     
  19. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    It would have been nice if there was a Legion town, even if it was effectively off limits to non-Legion characters, just so you got an honest decision between the sorts of civilisation you were helping win. But you can't even side with the White Legs if you're walking around in Legion armour with Caesar as your best friend.

    However, the SI cannot afford to let Caesar win. Caesar might accept 1950s levels of technology amongst the settled people of his lands but he'd never accept the more sophisticated things the SI wants most of all. Caesar could fix civilisation politically but he can't fix the planet ecologically, and he'd destroy the technology that doing so would require.
    Thank you.
     
  20. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    It's actually weird what technologies he does and does not accept. Like, the Legion does attempt to get its hands on energy weapons. Though to see that you have to be willing to throw Cassidy under the bus for the Van Graffs, in which you learn the Van Graffs are arranging a deal to supply the Legion with said energy weapons. Though this turns out to be a trap, and the Van Graffs call in NCR soldiers to attack and kill the Legionaries who show up for the deal.

    And a lot of people think the Auto-Doc in Caesar's tent is some gotcha, but it's not some shameful secret of his. If you ask him about it he'll flat out tell you that access to it is basically a reward for good service, but it can only do surface level stuff because they don't have the component for more involved medical treatment. (Like operating on a brain tumor.)

    But yes, even if the Legion could be considered a valid option I figured there's no way Krono could ever support or accept it. The Legion certainly wouldn't accept what Krono and his people have been doing with that alien tech.
     
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  21. Khornelius

    Khornelius Getting some practice in, huh?

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    He’s lifting a person in to the air, this person is presumably wearing a few dozen pounds of metal armor, and is on the other side of a canyon. To be more accurate this canyon is at most 1244 feet in length. That’s the length of about three football fields. That’s why they had to use a sniper to shoot the floating guy. Think of the Dam and it’s canyon as a no man’s land in world war 1, this is as close as either side can get without the other side raining artillery pieces on their head.
    The current long distance throw is a football that travelled 240 feet. The average soldier can only throw a grenade about 65-98 feet, with a few standout soldiers throwing them 164 feet. But a bigger problem is that a grenade only has a 5 second fuse and is more likely to explode up in the air half way through the arch.
     
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  22. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I should point out that he's a way south of the Mojave at the moment.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Go_Magikarp

    Go_Magikarp Getting out there.

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    Ehhhhh. Maybe it's just because I don't find the Fallout universe particularly interesting - at least in the sense of how a displaced OL would interact with it - but I'm not really a fan of these chapters. A lot of the what-if snippets are fairly understandable even if you aren't familiar with the lore and characters. Fallout is very much not in that category which probably has a lot to do with it. The Warhammer 40k chapters are in a semi-similar place of really needing to already be a fan in order to get what's going on without needing to constantly check different wikia pages.

    Although to be fair, this is the first alt-universe collection I've found myself not enjoying. So maybe it's just me.
     
  24. gustyeagle

    gustyeagle Know what you're doing yet?

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    Cover is clearly the only thing that matters, otherwise they would just be shot by the sniper, without needing to be lifted. I'm not saying it isn't scary, but these guys are the legion, they mainly fight with melee weapons against guys with guns. I would 10/10 times pick what Zoat is doing to them than any other way the legion kill anyone. You could have the same effect by using energy weapons.


    Not minding your own business in camp, they are in a trench. The most forward position possible. They charge machine guns with melee weapons, some of them more than once. The idea is nowhere as bad as being set on fire or beaten to death or crucified.


    I don't think anyone thinks paul can do what ever he wants to them. They really should be able to realize that all he can do is pick them up, once it's all he does. All he does is stop them from taking cover in a trench


    I was suggesting that Paul float a grenade over, then pull the pin and/or take pressure off the striker lever.
     
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  25. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    It's still a pretty scary thing and they don't necessarily know what he can do.
     
  26. jasonh23761

    jasonh23761 Getting sticky.

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    Great, now I want to see a sort of dedicated Fallout Band of Brothers type story that follows an NCR Infantry Platoon in the NCR-Legion war. Either that or a more realist political intrigue story of sorts. One that leans into the reality of the war implied rather then solely what was depicted. Garrison forces along the colorado, the small river boat battles, attempting to flip third powers along the borders, unsavory deals and long shot incursions.

    Damn you, damn you MrZoat for taunting me with what could be.
     
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  27. Coda

    Coda I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Still wrong. Consider "a dozen." Definitely plural, but you can still use it with an article -- "How many people should we expect?" "A dozen are coming." Likewise "a hundred," et cetera.

    In British English, collective nouns can either be grammatically singular or plural depending on context. "My team is ready" means "as an organization, this unit is prepared." "My team are ready" means "each member of the group is prepared." In American English, collective nouns are almost always singular unless the form of the word is already plural.

    There are still a few words in American English that retain traces of the British pattern, though. Consider "people." It's the plural of "person," of course, but it can also be singular when referring to a civilization. Or "pair," which is usually singular because you're referring to a single item formed by the association of two things, but it can also be a number word (like "dozen" above) so "the pair were in love" is valid. Indeed, all number words can be treated both ways -- "ten is enough" or "ten are red" are both grammatically correct.

    "Holy", unless there's some in-universe thing I don't know about. (As far as I know, plants don't poop.)
     
  28. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    There was a... Mod that tried to do that recently. Ah. Not everyone hated it..
    He could do that, but he's a telepath. He's finding his target by tracking its brain, and a grenade won't have one of those. Not a problem when it's close to him, but tricky once it gets far enough away that he can't see it.
     
  29. jasonh23761

    jasonh23761 Getting sticky.

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    Indeed there was and I was rather enjoying myself for the first few hours of it, heavy handedness aside. Given everything that occured I never ended up finishing it.

    Ah well, maybe I'll finally buckle down and progress past the outline stage of whatever crazy idea is in my head. Type something up, see how it goes. Could be fun.

    I'm always split between doing something NCR centric on the West Coast or BoS/Empire of Steel on the East Coast.
     
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  30. Cuchulin

    Cuchulin I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Another major reason and the most likely one for why the USA never went back for more is that Baja Peninsula is lacking. It lacks population, water, mineral resources, shade and any sort of wealth or much of any reason to go there unless you are a modern tourist. In other words it is mostly harsh desert with out many people and basically no large settlements even today.
     
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