With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Kinda going a bit too far now don't you think?

Furthermore, it's less about the idea Zoat has, and more about Is is something Grayven would actually do?

 

Have you made a claim about a fictional setting?

Have you failed to support it with evidence either from the story or from wider DC?

Have you continued to maintain this claim when the author tells you that you're wrong?

Then you may be pulling a Vaermina.

If you want to convince me otherwise, there's a fairly obvious path to doing so. Identify a character or group of characters in this story who have the required characteristics. If you're so sure that they exist, presumably you can do that? Or from canon material relating to the setting? Heck, if you can't do that you could at least mention a group from DC who have the required characteristics. There probably is one somewhere.

If you manage that, my response will be: 'oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about them'. Or 'I hadn't heard of them. You're right, they would work'.

Otherwise, you're pulling a Vaermina.

The Light uses alien technology, but their core projects like magic and Lex's fleet don't. Their magic is taught with Atlantean notation and mostly by humans. The cosmic converter, purple death ray and cold guns are all Earth technology.

 

There might have been others he could have recruited, but Black Manta was a known entity and potential minor threat. Gravyn and OL have both made points on what prison is for which ideally should be for rehabilitation otherwise why waste the resources. Is Black Manta a good person and should be rewarded with a pardon and stable job, not really but he is useful that is an utillarian ideal. Gravyn leadership style is if he is going to recruit someone he will make them the best they can be which includes dealing with interpersonal issues. Looking at the page for mercenaries on dc wiki there is Sky-pirate? As a potential recruit.

 

When has Renegade ever cared to avoid pissing people off?

 

Grayven is a dick-head is a LOOOOOONG established universal fact.

 

Not to further the argument, as it must be annoying to be argued against actions taken in this story. I was looking through various DC properties mercenaries and came across Strikeforce Europa.

 

That's a false dilemma to begin with.

Gravy has access to the G-Gnomes who can and do impart telepathic training.

So Black Manta's "experience" is in fact completely irrelevant.

Gravy could have found aliens who actually has the right skills instead of making do with people who don't actually have the right skills, paid them whatever they wanted for training and have the G-Gnomes telepathically copy and paste those skills into as many humans as Gravy wants.

And seems that would have been a lesser hassle and greater reward, if the goal is as stated, to find people with the skills for space combat.

This being Gravy, well, being a buttinski or reforming Manta into a useful minion is probably as much a motivation as anything else, if not more so.

 

I should also point out, that Grayven could very well be pulling from his comic knowledge here. "Hmm, I need a guy to do X. Who...oh yeah, Manta can do X!"

Also, as a writer, I can tell you that you WILL get backlash if you use an OC instead of *insert any character*.

 

Gotta go with the Vaermina side here. Grayven has G-gnomes and there are literally millions of discharged and bitter soldiers the world over with more experience in a given field that Grayven wants than Manta. Not to mention, just based on the veterans I know, not particularly loyal to their home nations. Better pilots who were discharged from the Russian military who will happily take a job giving experience either through in person teaching or via G-gnome for a quick buck, better marines from the US, etc. etc.

Yes, Manta's people have the closest thing to necessary skills available all in one place. Skills Grayven could have taken forcefully after breaking all their limbs and having the G-gnomes rip apart the minds of the mass-murdering terrorists. Not like it's the worst thing he's done. Not like it's the worst thing he's publicly done.

 

Renegade has even pulled this before. Both him and Paragon. Recruiting Starfire and Blackfire? I mean Blackfire kind of works, but is also not exactly stable or ideal for what Paragon is going for. The focus on those 2 feels like a DC fanboy for sure.

Not to mention that Renegade already had Hyde in his contact lists as a legacy from Light 1.0. He had a resource, why not convert it to be useful? I doubt that he is the only one who can be a part of training the Space Fleet, but he definitely can contribute. No reason to only get one.

There is a clear reason not to use Aliens: mainly that this is an Earth thing. It would defeat the purpose to just take alien help with it.

And it isn't like this costs Renegade that much. At this point it only pisses off Arthur only slightly more than he was already, and gets him more favor with Clea. He gets a new operative, and another "successful" reform he can point to.

 

I may have a theory for why he's recruiting Manta instead of picking options that don't risk pissing people off.

Despite his disdain for the super community on Earth and how they run things, both heroes and villains, renegade tends to think and act like they do.

He does things that they would do even though practically there's no reason for him to do it, like that assassin guy told him before they invaded the Caligula Club.

Maybe he views Manta as belonging to the same group he does, and I'm not talking about the Light, but rather the superhero/supervillain group, so that's why he's helping him and is interested in him instead of say the types of soldiers you mentioned, who possess the skills but aren't part of the community renegade belongs to.

Just a theory of mine.

 

This could also be simply put down as 'better inside pissing out'

Manta and his forces are an effective, rational(ish), high tech super villain crew that has escaped capture from the very active Justice League and Team. Along with the entire Atlantian Military, and every other sea going military up to this point. They are good at what they do to have lasted this long.

Sure they're not saints, but they're motivated, trained and human. The Light members that Gravyen work with on the uplift side of things are used to dealing with this kind of folk, and can related with them far better then most alternative sources of trained militants. No one's offering to hire Kobra for space crew men. The snake heads, at least the core fundamentalist types, are nuts. They're not hiring folks like the existing military due to the conflict of interest with their home nations vs the world as a whole, as covered a while back.

Between 'slaughter them all' generally not being League SOP, nor even UN standards. Manta dying likely means that the crews that work for him would find another leader or splinter. The latter would make things worse globally as they ramp up piracy with far less control then Manta has over them now. Jailing them all is an option, but at that point you've started a small war. Or escalated a pre-existing small war.

Grayven is redirecting some very dangerous people into a useful direction. Could he get crew elsewhere if he put in more effort....maybe. But that doesn't remove the threat that Manta and his crew are. And unless we want a repeat of what happened to the UK happening to Manta's people being Grayven or the League's news headlines....

 

I'd have liked to see more discussion about the Nabu mercy killing onscreen, since the last time we discussed it Zoat essentially said Zatara was basically fine with the status quo, and Renegade hasn't thought about Nabu in ages. I assume the encounter with Hawk and Dove had something to do with his decision, since it means that killing Nabu shouldn't result in a new Lord of Order taking over or anything.

So googling the wiki, the corpse might indicate that Arion is back in some capacity, which should be interesting given current Atlantean politics.

I'm not sure if telepathy works on the Shade, but that may be a way to view what the man's face looks like. If it's not something specifically related to the Shadowlands, I wonder why he's the only one who can see the face when a number of supernaturally potent people are also present.

 

Maybe 'a long' or 'habits'

Even if the experiments damaged some of it he still has a lot.

Yep.

At least he's no longer suffering.

Now to see if he reincarnated, assuming the Sword was used instead of renegade ordering him to self terminate.

'was a'

Yeah Nabu may have actually possessed something that can either damage, kill or contain him if he knew what Shade was.

'creates'

'doesn't do'

Hmm, maybe that spell John uses to hide his identity.

But taken up to a hundred.

 

create -> creates

missing a word after "a full intensity"

 

Did..? You just use the Nu52 version of the Blackhawks in a discussion with me?

Oh, I'm definitely blocking you now.

They also don't appear to use submarines and don't exist in this setting.

Renegade timeline Jim Lockhart got scrapped when he attacked Mount Justice.

Do you mean the guy from the forties? He's been dead for a while.

Nu52! Blocked!

That would work, and Grayven probably will use the Genomorphs to help with training. But having them participate willingly will make the process work better, as well as providing trainers and the implanted knowledge beds in.

 

And from what I read, the encounter in this universe went much worse for William.

Zoat did say the renegade was going to meet Arion.

Now to see how he deals with a Lovecraft level racist who is also one of the Earths most powerful magic users.

The Shade has been stated to be one of the most powerful beings in the universe, so he may be immune to some forms of magic.

Zatarra is a mortal, albeit powerful wizard, and renegade Diana may not be experimenting with her divine powers like paragon Diana is doing.

Also, Arion is a very, very powerful wizard, who in the comics has been everything from a Lord of Order, to a demigod, to receiving knowledge from some gods.

The guy has a lot of power.

 

I think that's alright.

Thank you, corrected.

 

I suspect telepathy works perfectly well on the Shade, more's the pity for the telepath. And that's also why he is the only face-viewer: he's an eldritch horror that thinks it's a nice gentleman in a suit. (He and DSS James Angleton can start a club.)

A hyper-racist... named "Aryan" spelled differently... Well, it's comic book names, I guess. Paging Otto Octavius.

 

I'm.....guessing this is a bundle of sticks saying that I'm not familiar with.

 

I know it's used by British people to refer to cigars and when a younger student serves an older one, but that's it.

Maybe it had a different meaning in Victorian times.

 

Ah, Richard Swift gets a turn in the limelight. His is a fascinating perspective. I've included a reminder of his pre-Flashpoint self for those who might have forgotten. Also to remind folks: He's a serving member of the league at Grayven's request, sort of an inside man to keep them from dying bravely and needlessly.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Sandbagging, my dear fellow. The same reason he pretended to rely on a magic cane back in the day when he battled Flashes.After all, there's no fun in simply steamrolling everything opposing you in shadows.

That would be Adam Blake? Captain Comet? Indeed, he had a harder path to recovery than the Paragon's timeline. Also good to see no hard feelings between Barry and Richard. After all, Barry understands the nature of the Game. Just as most of the Rogues do: No killing; No innocents harmed if possible; Accept defeat graciously...

At least he's ditched the pitch-black jumpsuit (complete with cowl) and waistcoat with flared shoulders. That was a mistake...

At least you're not the only one not wearing spandex, leather and/or rubber panels. It takes class to fight evil in a snappy suit.

Before anyone complains, 'Fag' here is old British slang for a new hire or recruit to an organisation. What modern American soldiers might call the FNG. Good to see Adam's been keeping busy at least.

But he's something of an unknown quantity? I can understand that measure of uncertainty. Not just in his somewhat nebulously-defined powers, but also his character, how he'll behave in the field...

Good to know he's still got the Tower in hand. Presumably it decided he's as good an owner as any. Sensible enough not to abuse its stockpiles of power, but not so scholarly that he'd recluse himself from the world.

Also works when gagged, not that anyone could get that close these days, I'll bet. It also looks baller. Nothing like a tuxedo and cloak for a classy pulp wizard. Just ask Mandrake the Magnificent!

Just in case you'd forgotten he's hardly a true believer in Truth, Justice and the American Way. Still, he has things, and people, he wants to keep safe, after all.

Yes, certain power-sets tend to encourage a certain way of fighting. But that's no excuse not to expand your skills. Most version of Superman do learn some moves from Batman, after all.

Oh, this promises to be interesting. A young hero who named himself Arion? Sounds like his ancient namesake took exception to the use of his name. And a surface-dweller at that? There's some interesting connections there, between this kid and Hawk and Dove. Could we see Amethyst of Gemworld appear, I wonder?

Not his own work, presumably, like Constantine's little trick. It would have faded on death in most cases. Presumably his killer wanted him to remain anonymous.

The joy of having more metaphysical Oomph as avatar of the Shadowlands. It would take something far more powerful to affect him, and there are few things on that level.

And telling that Zatara can't see through the spell. I would have expected him to attempt some kind of counterspell, but he may well not have had the chance yet...

So it'll be an approximation of the young man's face. Still, close enough for the numerous scanning methods on the team.

Oh, really? Batman isn't taking a photo to search for in his files? What about the Lanterns?

Ah, there we go. And good to see Richard's not totally invincible. Some would no doubt complain about that.

A pity Alan can't be here, but alas, Grayven took too long on the timing. That'll be an interesting point of difference if Paragon and Renegade ever meet, unlikely as that might be...

That spell must have some whammy to beat out a Lantern's Ring (admittedly not great against magic at the best of times) and New God technology. Presumably that was Scott's Mother Box he was waving about...

Looks like you just got volunteered to assist in the investigation...

So something totally memory-holed young Will's existence. Arion the Immortal must really have been annoyed.

Indeed. Was he stabbed? Shot? had his soul ripped out? That would go a long way to helping identify matters...

Well, then. A fun change of perspective. I've always liked the Shade, from the Starman comics and his own series that I've read. And this is an interesting murder mystery Zatara's brought to the League's attention. Let's hope we get to see some part of it play out. It'll be interesting to see if the elder Arion will make an appearance, and whether it'll tie into Grayven's affairs in Atlantis.

 

Until the EDF gets more powerful the League is the only thing standing between Earth and invading aliens.

I don't think a lot of the League actually wears spandex.

Diana's bikini suit was made by Hephaestus and I think it may be chain mail.

Batmans suit is probably some light, flexible, but hard material.

Supermans outfit may be Kryptonian in origin so it may be made of some other material etc.

Or he just took over.

His fiance and Opal City.

Maybe Wonder Woman.

She's roughly on his level, and knows how to use super strength for fighting.

Now they will meet.

Arion is a powerful wizard.

In the pre n52 comics he was everything from a demigod, to a Lord of Order, to using some of his dads divine power.

In the n52 he received knowledge from Poseidon and some alien sea gods, and crafted several powerful tools.

Zoat said that his version was just a mortal that reached his level of power by himself, but he's still a powerful wizard.

 

Ufff Zoat started to write this fic out of an irrational hatred for Nu, approaching him with things from the corners of DC he really hates is best done carefully.

 

The Shade's POV. This will be interesting. Also, Mr Zoat, can we get an updated list of members of League in both timelines to see how different they are?

Nice to see that Captain Comet is a full functioning member of the League in the Renegade timeline. How much weaker is he compared to the version in the Paragon timeline because of his brain damage?

I didn't expect to see Zatara still using Nabu's arsenal. What does his outfit look like now that he's using some gear from the Tower of Fate?

No matter how powerful you are, you aren't invincible. Even if it will take something very esoteric to beat you, it's possible it could happen.

Seems like Arion might be around. I wonder how Atlantis will react to learning that their most esteemed magician is a super Purist?

What about General Glory? Paul told Guy that he was able to operate in Europe because he was too nuts for the Spear of Destiny to affect him.

This reminds me of when Paul once told an alien that drew power from the Shadowlands that one reason she wasn't getting a power ring was because no one was sure on how that would react with her powers. Is this ever going to become a plot point?

 

No, that was shot down when Paul complained about Superman not wearing armor, if memory serves.

There are continuities in which that costume is armor- Pre-crisis for example, the suit was made from Kryptonian cloth and was hence suitably durable.

 

Thank you, corrected.

Younger student. He and Adam Blake are the most recent inductees. The new boys.

No, it was of its time. It'sd foolish to think of fashion as eternal.

Defenders of the Earth was my main cartoon growing up.

His wife and Opal City.

No, I started writing this fic because it was easier than converting an Ork army out of boar models.

"Oh. The lunatic. As I recall he only became active there after the D-Day landings."

 

Actually I don't think he was racist in the comics.

I know he was crazy in the n52 universe, before Blue Beetle and Nabu trapped him in a crystal, but I think Zoat made him a Purist in this story.

Still, don't know much about this character, so I may be wrong.

 

I wouldn't exactly call him a purist- He made the animalistic atlanteans in the first place in this fic.

Except for the hawaiian shark men, according to Word of Zoat they did that to themselves because sharks are cool.

My favorite incarnation of Arion is from his miniseries.

Atlantean magic stopped working, so the Atlantean gods and Arion were left powerless. Still immortal though.

Arion lives in a rent controlled apartment in NYC and makes end meet by hustling tourists at three card monte. Not very well, though, he's like always this close to being kicked out for nonpayment of rent.

He eats every day at the deli owned by his nemesis the Atlantean God of Chaos. He never ever tips.

The rest of the Atlantean gods feed pigeons at the park.

Oh and Arion brags to the Atlantean gods about his granddaughter Power Girl.