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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I doubt Persephone still felt all that happy about it, even if Hades did everything correctly according to the rules of society.

    Just because something is accepted by society, that doesn't mean everyone will be okay with it.
     
  2. Vaermina

    Vaermina Experienced.

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    And then she kills Hades...


    LePaul very much is.
     
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  3. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    Well, that question's answered. So, they're looking for his connection to the Alliance of the Just. I wonder, how deep will they try to dig? And what secrets will they find that they weren't looking for?

    Well, isn't it obvious? Nazi versus Super-Patriot. 'Icily polite' would be the best possible interaction...

    Well, that's what it would look like to an outside observer, I guess. I'm sure the locals would have different opinions.

    And sadly, they were a thing back before the war. Same as American communism.

    Madness? Pettiness? I'm more impressed that those who follow him still do so. Since I doubt he works alone.

    And Earth-10 Uncle Sam is not really a significant issue, until the reformation begins.

    Of course, how many people believe her about it, that's up in the air.

    Or just, y'know, she's a gorgeous woman. Some guys just aren't that complicated.

    I doubt you're in that much danger from any of them, certainly.

    Hey, you never know what'll happen.

    Stranger things have happened.

    Let's not go for the impossible here, OL.

    I suspect you're wearing out your welcome with this line of discussion, OL. :p It's not that uncommon for you, is it?

    Just... Stop, OL. Give it up.

    Boundaries, OL.

    Well done, you ticked off the superspeed Nazi. I suspect the next mugger she meets won't be enjoying the arrest.

    People can't just up and change instantly, OL. As much as you wish they could be sensible, sometimes...

    Thank goodness Zee's here to restrain his bluntness.

    ...Probably not a good idea anyway. Who knows what the kitchen is like back there?

    Well, if you do feel unpleasant, you can fix it once you get your Rings back on.

    Oh, I don't see him being all too rational about this, as sensible as Hades usually is. Best hope is that he understands and accepts it.

    Well, he hasn't had long to put a plan together. It's only been a couple of days tops since Hephaestaean took over.

    He's not done a good job of it so far...

    You don't think like a normal person much any more, OL. Much less someone who's decided they're the victim and basically lived that role for thousands of years. Even if she's justified in thinking it.

    ...That wasn't a compliment, OL.

    But alas, we are each shaped by different things. What you'd do is not what she would do. Nor did, in fact.

    Different circumstances, different people.

    Hmm... Enable Persephone to rise into a true queen, rather than a mere wife? The question is how quickly you could do that.

    Time to find out what Persephone has to say, then? And get the children's perspectives?

    So, things begin to move again. What will Persephone's decision be? Will the siblings have a fresh idea to put forwards? Or will the Underworld face its own upheaveal? We'll be finding out soon, I think. As for the Uncle Sam thing, until they can get a closer look at him, it'll be uncertain as to what might be amiss...
     
  4. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    She clearly didn't feel happy with it, given what's going on in the story. However we can't say he had 'questionable' consent, given that he had perfect consent given the time and circumstances. I'm all for her leaving, but what we've seen is that the entire thing is a tragedy of errors.
     
  5. Ganurath

    Ganurath Apologizes For Nothing

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    ...That film is from 2018, and very political.
     
  6. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    And it was back in America even shortly after the war.

    The first time I actually discovered that Nazis used to exist in America was in American Gods.

    Remember that the society he fight is a Nazi society.

    Nazis are known for killing people they find to be undesirable.

    People like gays, trans, those that have hidden their ethnic background, anyone who disagrees with them etc.

    Sam would have ample recruits from these groups.

    Paul is really terrible at reading people.

    He rarely does that.

    He's not so good with those.

    I doubt Persephone wants to be a queen.
     
  7. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    This really brings up the question of what is the foundation of morality. Are the standards of moral behavior absolute or are they purely subjective construct? Either conception of morality has some serious problems when taken to extremes. I personally think that we should pursue a moderate approach where many actions should always be defined as immoral and the prevalent conditions can only provide context or mitigation.


    If we assume that Morality is simply the beliefs and ideals of the dominant culture than you are correct that Hades did nothing wrong. He could in fact be characterized as an exceptionally generous husband given how he never exercised his "rights" by forcing Persephone to have sex with him or delivered beatings at any sign of resistance. I view this as a classic example of the type of problems that come from treating morality as a purely subjective construct. It becomes possible to characterize even the most horrendous types of human behavior as acceptable or even praiseworthy when you only judge according to the current rules of the dominant culture.

    This has been covered before, but to put it simply:

    Hades has been stopping Persephone from escaping for thousands of years. Even if (and this is very big if) he somehow didn't know that Persephone was only consenting out of fear in the early stages of their relationship he undoubtedly caught on at some point and still relied on her fear of him to maintain their marriage. This means that what could originally be described as a tragic misunderstanding has since transitioned into a classic abusive relationship where one party wants to leave but is unable to escape due to the threats of the other.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  8. Pinklestia

    Pinklestia Experienced.

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    That's means he never doubts himself and isn't that dangerous?
     
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  9. Temp0101

    Temp0101 Know what you're doing yet?

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    Man Paul is taking this marriage/divorce thing way too pragmatically to the point of being insensitive. Kinda feels like he's putting his foot in his mouth a lot in these last arcs.
     
  10. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    We're seeing how he acts in a conflict between someone that he is both emotionally engaged with and who is useful to him as-is (but who is basically in the wrong), and someone that he is both not emotionally engaged with and who is not useful to him as-is (but who is basically in the right). Zatanna is also seeing this, possibly for the first time, and maybe it'll change how she feels about him (though I think it helps a lot that they were already drifting apart, and that she knows how badly she screwed up when her crush was at its scariest).
     
  11. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    That's because Hades is useful and she isn't.
    Thank you, corrected.
     
  12. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    I'm not having a morality debate on QQ. Historically those have never been good for the forum or story they are argued in. WTR has had enough of those.
     
  13. Splinterface

    Splinterface Getting sticky.

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    Sick. And if Paul was also born then, that would be a different discussion. But he wasn’t, and he now seems to be competing for the Gold Medal for Mental Gymnastics in the Olympics to justify not just letting a woman get a divorce from her husband she’s terrified of.
     
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  14. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Hmm, yeah this is bound to have her reexamine how she feels about him if she sees his more callous side.

    Previously she was likely to view Paul in a more positive light due to him helping her with getting her dad back and due to the Star Sapphire messing with her head, but now Paul isn't helping her and she doesn't have the Star Sapphire, so she is more likely to view Paul in a more balanced way and see that while he does have a lot of good qualities, he's also not exactly boyfriend material.

    Well, not unless his significant other is also a bit messed up.

    The fact that he may be in favor of someone staying in an arrangement that they don't want any part could also give her Nabu flashbacks and she may be uncomfortable with Paul allowing that to happen.
     
  15. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    Almost as if you entirely missed what I was responding to.
     
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  16. Sordid Snake

    Sordid Snake (Verified Viper)

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    From the context I think its a film reenactment of the Wannsee Conference but I'm not familiar enough with the Wannsee Conference to tell how well it matches the recovered protocol or Eichmann's witness statements. It matters if its a part of a preexisting film about the Wannsee Conference or if its something D'Souza produced de-novo.

    I also disagree with Zoat that it proves US fascism. It proves US racism, not fascism.
     
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  17. kraiv

    kraiv Getting sticky.

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    on the topic of persephone


    Explains decently well that people were nearly more scared of her then of hades
    And the persephone has literaly nothing to do with acctualy causing spring
     
  18. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    She is what causes axial tilt. But, be careful not to imply it's because of her 'specific gravity'.
     
  19. Valint

    Valint I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Yeah, that's one of the problems when considering myths.

    If a king gives away his daughter to a hero, the myth wouldn't treat that as rape because the father consented. If Zeus seduces a princess, the myth would treat that as rape, because the father didn't consent.

    In either case, the information necessary to tell us if we would consider it rape is missing from the story, because whether the princess consented is completely irrelevant to the people telling the original story.

    Like... a lot of myths become very strange to us when you reword them as "The king has declared that, if any random guy can succeed at a particular task, the reward is that he'll let that guy rape his daughter" even though that's exactly what's going on, according to our mores.
     
  20. Duke Long

    Duke Long Know what you're doing yet?

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    I agree with RichardWhereat that morality debates are bad, but I did want to say that I think some people are forgetting that in the context of this story, we already know that the SI doesn’t believe there is a foundation to morality and seems to have a nihilistic view. After all, he literally says in one episode (well, thinks) that his moral code is no better, objectively, than Weaponer Kalmin’s (who wants to destroy everything with the possible exception of the Anti-Monitor, but without the exception of himself).
     
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  21. Wheenesss

    Wheenesss Versed in the lewd.

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    It occurs to me. Have we solved the mystery of the six Supergirls yet?

    Because at this moment we have:
    1. Angelika, better known as Overgirl
    2. Kara from Earth 16 who has no interest in being a superhero
    3. Linda Danvers/Noriel, the current actual Supergirl on the Team
    4. Dana Dearden, the Supergirl of the Legion of Superheroes but who is from the present
    5. Kara from Demon Earth who was purified but we haven't checked up on her so we have no idea what she's actually like as a person.
    6. Pre-Crisis Kara, and we have no idea how she even got here unlike the rest.

    Am I missing anyone?
     
  22. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Don't think that was Wannsee. That was more about them decisively deciding what they were going to do with the Jews.

    That was probably meant to be them figuring out how the Nuremberg Laws were going to work. The Nazis were actually inspired by America in quite a few ways for how they handled racial matters. Even their Lebensbraum plans were in many ways inspired by Manifest Destiny and the treatment of Native Americans.

    Though that clip is from a movie made by people who worship Trump and tries to claim he's the same as Abraham Lincoln. While blatantly ignoring the paradigm shift that was a result of Nixon's Southern Strategy. Among other stupidities.
     
  23. Radix

    Radix Know what you're doing yet?

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    I just realized we havent had Paulternate chapters in quite a while. Other than the He-Man one, there hasnt been any since Veganism, 10 episodes ago.
     
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  24. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    The He-Man one was pretty long. I'm also writing one now.
     
  25. Deadring

    Deadring Screee!

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    Now, this is a big deal when publicly and obviously moving through the power levels. If you seem pitifully weak, or at least present yourself as a mortal wizard with little formal training, that's really one of your biggest strengths (your other strengths aren't big). People underestimate what you can accomplish. Even if they are aware of the enemies that Mortal John had defeated, they also probably heard that he did it by tricking them somehow. The solutions are pretty easy and obvious to implement, but many of Mortal John's enemies are in some way arrogant or overconfident. You know what trickery means to creatures of such a kind? They hear "He tricked them" and they think "He is weak". The true error there, is not being cautious just because the enemy is weak; that doesn't mean they can't hurt you. Often they underestimate him because he is also a mortal, and everyone knows demons and powerful spirits look down on mortals; giving him the opportunity to harm them when they drop their guard or otherwise give him an opening.

    Now? He's the new bad motherfucker on the block. I'm pretty sure most creatures in that sort of wheelhouse have heard his name, and heard the names of those he's beat up. "Yo, he did that while he was a mortal. A mortal." Now, he's some kind of godlike avatar of both order and chaos together! It's irrelevant whether those two elemental ascensions only add their power together, or multiply it exponentially - the relevant point is that this dude was hardcore as a mortal, and now he's even stronger.

    So, anyone who was already his enemy is pulling out the big guns, assuming they haven't run for the hills, and he has absolutely attracted... challengers. The point is, even though he is considerably more powerful, that doesn't mean he is safe. OL may not be able to find him at all. Though, that said, we are the readers, not characters, and so we know that he will show up again at some point, in some form.

    I look forward to it.
     
  26. Radix

    Radix Know what you're doing yet?

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    Fair enough. And I actually did like that one despite being only familiar with the new She-ra cartoon. It was satisfying to get an arc complete to itself instead of the dips we normally get. Generally only Red and Peter Wynne have gotten any sort of focus on that level.
     
  27. Threadmarks: Regnancy (part 19)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    30th October 2012
    21:45 GMT +3


    "…butcher my mind to make me his compliant slave!"

    Persephone is clearly incensed, and has naturally decided that I've sided with Hades and regard her as a problem to be beaten into compliance. We're in the palace for this, and I can see the pear trees outside of the window stretching up to provide their goddess with weaponry. Not the grass or flowers though, because her domain is far narrower than that.

    I should probably let her get her rant out of her system before interjecting.

    But they're not even in the same room.

    "Have you no shame?!"

    "No."

    Darn it. I see Zagreus wince behind her. I'm not completely sure what sort of societal norms he complies with, but there aren't many societies where having a complete mental break down in front of a stranger is encouraged. Thing is… With everything that's happened, a raging… Minor goddess just isn't that big a deal any more.

    The next stage will be threats, and I shouldn't point out that they're empty.

    "You are the lowest form of mortal life. Were there any justice in this world you would suffer in Tartarus as you so richly deserve, your genitals devoured daily by blunt-beaked ravens. What land do you come from that trains its people in such callousness?"

    I wait for a-.

    "Answer me!"

    "I am a citizen of Themyscira."

    And that's an end to the threat, because Themyscira's plant life is blessed by Demeter and the locals haven't broken the covenant. She can't do a thing to Britain because… Because it's outside of her bulwark anyway, and though the quantity has crept up after the Sheeda Harrowing and the disappearance of huge areas of South American farmland, it still doesn't do much of its own farming. And she can't do anything to my original homeworld because even if there was a portal back there, a magic life form like her couldn't exist there.

    "But if it helps, I've revised my original plan significantly."

    "No!"

    Don't. Sound. Smug.

    "And if this one last attempt at rapprochement doesn't work I will happily argue in favour of a divorce to Hephaestaean."

    "You want to carve my brain out of my skull!"

    "No, that was the original version of the plan that I came up with in two minutes because people expect me to be able to solve a problem that's been simmering away for thousands of years in a couple of days. After I talked to Hecate, I found out that her coven can remove classes of memory temporarily, and return them to their owner at a later time."

    "And you think that is better."

    Don't say 'yes, obviously'.

    "As I understand it, the reason why your relationship with Hades is in such a state is Zeus. If he'd talked things through with you and your mother, or just told Hades to try wooing you himself, things might be very different. On the other hand, if you couldn't stand him anyway, then it was never going to happen and he needs to get his head around that."

    "So I am still your slave."

    Don't say, 'no, you're still an immortal goddess-queen with a lifestyle that would be envied around the world', true as it would be.

    "So you came to me to ask me to persuade Hephaestaean to give you a divorce. This is what you would have to do in order to get my cooperation. If you don't want my help, feel free to return to your forest." I shrug. "Up to you. Now if you'll please excuse me, I also need to persuade Lord Hades to go through with this."

    I turn.

    "What do you mean?"

    "I haven't talked to him about this yet. The whole point is to either prove to you that the relationship could work, or to prove to him that it can't. If the latter is true, he might well grant you a divorce without bothering Hephaestaean. Which would be better for everyone. But to be fair, we'd be locking his memories too."

    I take a breath.

    "There's no need to make a quick decision about this. Take as much time to think about it as you want."

    I walk away, heading through the receiving room door, down the corridor and out onto a balcony overlooking part of the garden. Lords Hades-. I wince inwardly at how hopeful he looks. Macaria looks less so.

    "So I've got a plan."

    "Yes?"

    "And Queen Persephone hasn't agreed to it yet, but I want you both to have time to feed back with any problems you can see or any reassurances you want."

    "Zeus no longer sits upon Olympus. I believe that you have proven that your plans can have merit."

    "So you know that Zeus is the reason why your relationship with Persephone fell at the first hurdle, that if you'd taken the time to woo her you both hopefully wouldn’t be where you are now."

    "Yes."

    "I've been talking to Hecate, and we're pretty sure that we can… Temporarily, remove some of your memories. Effectively… Making it as if your relationship to date hadn't happened for as long as the spell is in effect."

    "So that I could begin our relationship again properly."

    "Maybe. Because she's not keen, and the only way I think she's going to agree to this, is if it doesn't work, you grant her a divorce."

    "But it will-. What-. In this wager, what qualifies as a success?"

    "You'd be trying to woo her original self. If she rejects you, even without all of the fear she felt when you… Collected, her. Then that's a failure."

    "And she would leave."

    "And you would agree to a divorce, and trouble her no more."

    "And what is a success?"

    "If you build up a sufficiently positive relationship that it causes her to view your current relationship in a new light when your memories are restored."

    "Is there any risk?"

    "You might have to divorce your wife, whom you love, and avoid her evermore."

    "Is there any risk from the magic?"

    "Not so far as we can determine."

    "Then I will do it. The opportunity to finally make things right with Persephone is more than I can pass up."

    I smile. "Glad to hear it. I'll go and see if she's decided yet."
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
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  28. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Yeah, this sounds about right to what I was expecting Persephone to say.

    England.

    But you were born and raised in England.

    "you have"
     
  29. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    "that I came up"
     
  30. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Versed in the lewd.

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    I can't tell which way I want this to all go down. I hope Demeter tries something on Paul or at least meets with him after all of this.
     
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