With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · May 25, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
8th April 2013
10:32 GMT -7

A construct telephone floats next to my head as I contemplate Starswirl's Mirror.

"Hey, Sunset, do you have a minute?"

Oh, yeah. She is definitely going to want to be in on this discussion. If only because as an Alicorn herself, she would be a theoretical peer to Celestia. Plus the sheer satisfaction of seeing Celestia's face when the Renegade tells her 'You're doing it wrong' and making it stick.

"I'm about to take a lab, so this better be important."

Luna give me a 'are you serious' look. I smile and nod. She rolls her eyes and tosses her mane.

Hey, to Sunset, research is deadly serious. As is teaching.

"I'm about to visit Equestria because Celestia's got a stupid plan and I need to explain to her how stupid it is. Slowly, using small words. And it's either going to mess up her plan or I'm actually going to have to conquer Equestria after she enacts it because it's going to mess up the whole country."

"I'm not… Sure…"

And having an extra horn handy will be quite useful if there's fighting.

"Tell you what: if you come then I won't give Twilight Sparkle a copy of Rules for Rulers and Machiavelli's The Prince."

"That… Wait, what's she planning?"

Still amazing that a book that was basically the writer telling its intended subject how much he sucked as a ruler has become an effective guide to good leadership.

"I guess you'll just have to-" Luna fires a starry blue beam at the Mirror from her horn, altering the time dilation affect to 'skip' Equestia forward so that we'll appear during an empty patch in Celestia's diary. Using it like that allows Luna to spend time on Earth whenever I have spare time without missing anything on Equestria, a neat side benefit from us both being ageless. "-come and find out."

"Aghhh… Fine, but only because I don't trust you in Equestria-" The air to my right shimmers as Sunset appears, and I dismiss my telephone construct. "-without me."

Well, that's interesting. Fiddling with the relative time of the two worlds as a way to have uninterrupted hookups.

"It was only a small riot."

She stares at me. "Yes, Grayven, foals are usually small."

And now I wonder just what happened. I don't remember anything like that in story... I'm guessing a chance meeting with some young students in either Ponyville or the Academy.

Luna regards Sunset wearily. "Our Sister's former student, We hope that thou art not deriving schadenfreudic pleasure in anticipation of Our Sister's future discomfiture."

"No, not… Yet."

She reserves the right to feel said enjoyment if the occasion arises, though.

"Sunset, if thou dost wish to mend thine relations, such practices will not aid thine efforts."

"It's not exactly that. I just want her to get used to ponies demonstrating that she can be wrong." … "And when it happens I want to be just out of her field of view. So she's thinking about me."

Sort of get Subnutt to go 'oh, dear why does this seem so famil-.. Oh.'

I nod. "Your ancestors should never have move their eyes to the front. It's a bad idea in prey-species."

Luna shakes her head. "Do not make Us regret this more than We already do. Jean, We would appreciate-" A hush tube appears in front of her. "-a passage home. Thank you."

Besides, Ponies look far less cute with more realistic equine eye placement...

Luna trots through as Sunset and I approach the Mirror. Sunset's frowning. "What's she planning on doing, anyway?"

"Abdicating."

Yes, just a little thing, naturally.

Sunset yanks her head around to stare at me- "Ow!" -and manages to walk into the Mirror's frame face first.

"Yes, it-."

Somehow I think she would have appreciated hearing that just a bit earlier. And especially not while she was in motion.

She keeps staring at me as she rubs her cheek. "Abdicate? Are you serious? She's ruled the country for a thousand years!"

I nod. "I know. I'd have thought that if she kept it up for fifty years that she'd pretty much run in a groove until the Armies of the Righteous finally threw her out, but it turns out no."

Well, someone might be responsible for that, with all their little nudges.

"Do you think it's because of Sombra?"

I consider the possibility. "No, I… Don't think so. Cadence and Shining Armor combine ruling a city with having a romantic relationship, and Luna and I manage it as well. Actually, I was wondering-." I gesture to the Mirror part of the Mirror. "Shall we?"

To be fair, neither you and Luna are ruling the same territory. I have the feeling there might be more arguments if you were in charge of the same lands.

She nods, and I walk through, appearing on the other side in my pony form. Sunset follows me through a moment later, taking a moment to check herself over and smile as she reviews her wings.

"Ah, what were you wondering?"

'You know what the difference is between you and me? I make this look good.'

Not that the Renegade isn't a handsome example of Alicornhood, but the ladies just look that bit finer.

"The Hearthwarming story. The leader of the unicorn ponies was a princess, the leader of the pegasus ponies was a commander and the leader of the earth ponies was a chancellor… Or something like that."

She nods. "That's right?"

Which goes some way to explaining why they don't use the title Queen, I guess?

"So how come Celestia just uses the unicorn pony title?"

She snorts as we head out of the Mirror chamber. "You've seen our military, right?"

I do hope they've gotten a bit more professional in the years since the Renegade has been advising them.

"Yes?"

"As far as I was able to tell, she's never been part of the military. She's fought things, but-." Her eyes narrow. "In the books I read, she mostly did that on her own. I guess that in reality Luna was there too."

I shake my head. "Don't even get me started on her revisionism."

Well, she probably didn't want her subjects asking awkward questions about where this other Alicorn in the history books went.

"That's why she's not 'Commander'. I think that title got used for the leader of the Equestrian Army back when we had one, then it got retired. And she's never been elected to office, so she doesn't get to call herself Chancellor. That title wasn't used for centuries before it got recycled for our chief bureaucrat. When I lived here, that was Scribed Tome, but I don't actually know who it is now." She wing-shrugs. "If I had to guess, I'd say that she took the title 'Princess' not because of any sort of unicorn tribalism but more because she wasn't qualified for the other two and the ancient pegasi and earth ponies would have been insulted if she took them as well or instead."

Now why do I get the feeling the Renegade will recommend having a triumvirate leadership using all three titles and roles? The temporal ruler, the military and the bureaucratic.

I grin as we head towards the dining room. "Heh."

Sunset's horn glows, pushing open the double doors and granting us entrance. Celestia looks up a little self-consciously from her mostly-finished breakfast, while Luna is levitating a couple of oversized chairs over to the table for me and Sunset.

At least it looks like they're not all piling on her over this plan. Yet.

"Grayven. Would you like to join us for breakfast?"

"Ah, thank you but no. Not breakfast time for me." I trot over to occupy the chair opposite her while Sunset takes one… Sort of next to Celestia, but just out of her visual field while she's talking to me. "You and… You and Sombra doing alright?"

Ah, and she's doing exactly what she said she would. Good to see she lives up to her promises.

"Yes, thank you. Both of us are busy with our duties, but we are able to find some time to spend together."

"Feel free to abuse the Mirror if you want a break. Listen… Luna…" I look around and check that there are no servants or guards in the room and that the door is shut. "Told me that you have a retirement plan?"

And boy wouldn't that set the rumour mill ablaze. On the other hand, just like in 'Doctor Who', six little words... Don't You Think She Looks Tired?

She glances at Luna before returning her attention to me. "I do."

"And it occurred to me that since my special talent is running countries and yours isn't, it might be a good idea if we… Worked on it a bit."

Well, I suppose the 'running' part does count. Shortly after the 'taking over' part.

She gives me a mildly sceptical look that makes it clear that she knows that I'm choosing my words with deliberate politeness.

"I would be happy to hear your concerns. I know that me no longer being on the throne would be a big change, but I'm confident that my little ponies-"

I suspect they'd be able to hear the screams of shock all the way to the Crystal Empire.

I don't have to look at Sunset to know that she's rolling her eyes as she mouths the phrase.

"-are capable of adapting."

And I can't help but picture Celestia having a little moment where she glances sideways suspiciously.

"Yes, and appointing a nationally recognised heroine to succeed you is a perfectly sound choice. My main.. concern is the timeline. And.. Twilight's training. Because Twilight's special talent isn't administration either, which means that she'll have to learn the normal way."

Celestia considers me for a moment. "Grayven, are you trying to spare my feelings?"

'Sink or Swim' in this case might drag the whole country under with her.

"It-. Yes, yes I am."

Her ears flop, and her body sags. "How bad?"

At least she has the savvy to understand she almost done bucked up.

"Since ponies are generally pretty nice… I think the country would survive. But the world isn't ready for a twenty year old demigoddess with supreme executive authority and obsessive compulsive disorder. It would be… Less than idea."

She sighs sadly. "Alright. What do you suggest?"

I shudder to imagine the results. Though the trains would probably run on time...

Well, that went well. Celestia is at least reasonable enough to cotton on that if they're coming to her like this, then maybe, just maybe, it wasn't quite the good idea she thought it was.

Apparently she hasn't been much of a student of politics in her millennia-plus of rulership. The near-worshipful attitude of her Ponies probably didn't help when she made joking or outright bad suggestions...

Darko · May 25, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
The Hearthwarming story. The leader of the unicorn ponies was a princess, the leader of the pegasus ponies was a commander and the leader of the earth ponies was a chancellor… Or something like that."

She nods. "That's right?"

"So how come Celestia just uses the unicorn pony title

Princess is honestly one of the few titles there that signifies the top leader of a government and state.

Commander is typically something you give to military leadership.

Chancellor can be something given to a government leader, but it does not necessarily imply that the title holder is the top authority.

AmericanNumbers · May 25, 2024

Isn't the easiest path for Celestia to handoff rule of Equestria to Luna and Grayven and have them run the country while they all train Twilight?

Mr Zoat · May 25, 2024

AmericanNumbers said:
Isn't the easiest path for Celestia to handoff rule of Equestria to Luna and Grayven and have them run the country while they all train Twilight?

Neither have the required level of legitimacy or knowledge. Luna has the respect of the guard for making them relevant and capable, but the rest of the country barely knows her. And aren't so traumatised that they'd accept anyone, as the crystal ponies are.

And Celestia isn't quite prepared to give Grayven that sort of authority.

moralrelativity · May 25, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
should never have move their eyes

move -> moved

Mr Zoat · May 25, 2024

moralrelativity said:
move -> moved

Thank you, corrected.

Doccer · May 25, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
we'll appear during an empty patch in Celestia's diary

Dairy?

Mr Zoat said:
a small riot."

She stares at me. "Yes, Grayven, foals are usually small

Which riot was that?

Azure Mirage said:
It's like the movie The Last Dragon now that I think about it. Twilight's master runs off leaving her to handle things with incomplete training hoping it works out. Hmmm, Cultivator Ponies....

A MLP movie?

Tembu · May 25, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Twice a year or every other year?

Every year. On June and december

Someguy Somewhere · May 25, 2024

I would assume the Riot in question was the one over the whole 'cutie marks are parasites' speech from a while back.

Mr Zoat · May 25, 2024

Someguy Somewhere said:
I would assume the Riot in question was the one over the whole 'cutie marks are parasites' speech from a while back.

No, it was an off-page noodle incident. Those ponies were adults.

Someguy Somewhere · May 25, 2024

I stand corrected

NightmareWarden · May 26, 2024

Azure Mirage said:
Hmmm, Cultivator Ponies....

It is a bit scary I had the same idea. But mine was- spellcaster unicorns, energy-flinging pegasi, and cultivator earth ponies. Body cultivator, but leaving room for esoteric things. With the various offshoots and sister species coming from descendants of the weirder cutluvation styles or weirder unicorn rituals (side effects?).

Dao of Magic on RoyalRoad is a dead non-FIM story, and Illuminating Invitation (SV link) a Cultivator story… but those two combined? Exceptional character writing and a fun magic system? Lots of potential

Mr Zoat · May 26, 2024

8th April 2013
10:37 GMT -7

That didn't take long.

Sunset plants her forehooves on the table. "You what?"

Luna doesn't exactly look impressed, either. "I too would request an explanation, Sister."

Celestia takes Sunset's response in her stride. Luna words on the other hand make her look quite uncomfortable. "It is something I found out… While I was trying to understand what had happened to you. Nightmare Moon was equal my height, and she hit me a good deal harder than I had ever seen you hit anypony."

"Nightmare Moon was a madmare wreathed in arcane shadow. I can increase my height with illusion just as well."

Celestia shakes her head. "No, it was more than that. Just as you shrank when-. When you returned, so there was a completeness about… Her, that granted her greater size and greater power."

Luna's eyes narrow. "So if I wish to equal your height and power, I must once again descend into madness."

"Hah!" Three decidedly unhappy mares swivel their heads my way. "I just worked it out! If a pony has a special talent for violence, they can literally ascend through killing things! All the way! Harmony is horse apples!"

Sunset's glare intensifies. "I knew that. What I didn't know is that Celestia had a spell for fully empowering an alicorn!"

Celestia sighs. "I didn't know that's what it did until I studied your research. I only knew that it had something to do with why Nightmare Moon was so strong, and-" She looks at Luna. "-I could not risk using something like that on you."

Sunset growls. "But you could have shown me the research!"

"It would do nothing to a normal pony-."

"It would have helped me understand the process!"

I raise my right forehoof. "So before we get totally off course,-" Sunset snorts. "-that explains how you expect Twilight to move the sun and moon. It doesn't explain why you haven't used it on Cadence."

Celestia's fur pinks slightly. "The spell causes physical growth. Shining Armor is a… Well built stallion, but-."

I lower my hoof. "Alright, say no more."

"And Cadence has no need for the additional power." I.. frown-. "If you are about to ask about the Sombra of this world, the solution to defeating Sombra was the Crystal Heart. Cadence isn't a fighter. Giving her that extra power wouldn't have allowed her to defeat him by confronting him directly."

Sunset grins her teeth so hard that I'm honestly worried that she's going to crack them.

"Yeeees, but the added endurance would have allowed her to maintain the shield for longer, and perhaps given Shining Armor more time to find the Heart without needing the bearerherd?"

"Perhaps, but it was not required. Twilight found the Heart and Sombra was defeated."

I stare at her for a moment. This is the pony who has been doing Equestria's contingency planning for-. Oh Source.

"Celestia, if you..? Not trying to be morbid here, but if you'd suddenly dropped dead, say, two hundred years ago, who would have managed the sun?"

"I have an amulet which can maintain the rotation of sun and moon. Had it come to it, the executor of my Will would have been granted access to it."

Luna raises her eyebrows. "That thing still exists? We had assumed that it would have been lost, or fallen to pieces."

"No, I've still got it." Celestia looks thoughtful. "Though it has been some time since I checked on it. Perhaps it would be wise to do so today, just in case."

Yes, yes it would. "Alright, so it went you, then the amulet. Then what?"

"I included instructions on how to rebuild the amulet if it got damaged or destroyed."

"In how many places?"

She blinks. "In the same locked chest as the amulet."

I'm unable to stop myself wincing. "Make copies, hide them in various places across the country. You can't put all your world-sustainingly-critical-stuff in one place. What about teaching ponies to do it themselves?"

She shakes her head. "Doing so drains the magic from unicorns. Starswirl's beard greyed prematurely from the strain of casting the spell, and he was often left unable to use any magic for most of the day. He told us that only alicorns can move the sun and moon without being drained."

I grin and nod. "Sunset! New research project! Find-."

"Just use more ponies, and add in pegasus ponies and earth ponies." She calms down a little as she works it out. "There's no real magical difference between an alicorn and a group of the three tribes working together other than the energy you need to sustain the link itself. Also, you both need to give me, Twilight and Cadence lessons on how to do it just in case."

I nod. "With the Mirror, my tube generators and the extra alicorns, that should be enough. But in the minds of most ponies, your whole 'controlling the sun' thing is a core sign that you're the ruler of the country. Twilight definitely needs training and practice before you abdicate." Ah. "And… Are you going to be alright not doing that any more?" She looks at me quizzically. "It's your special talent, after all. Usually, not being able to use those has adverse psychological side effects, and I wouldn't want Twilight to have to fight... Um, Fearsome Sunburn, or whatever."

Celestia chuckles quietly, covering her muzzle with her right forehoof. "I don't think she has to worry about that. I've been raising the sun for over eleven hundred years. I won't go mad because I stopped."

"Okay, but if you start… I don't know what it would look like. If you want to control the sun, even if it's just for a day? Come back, get whoever's doing it to stop so you can do it." She looks hesitant. "You can do it in secret so as not to undermine Twilight."

"Very well."

"Okay, now, actual governance. As Luna's explained it to me, you generally don't alter the legal code, but serve as a check on city and provincial councils who do, so as to prevent overreach and ensure a degree of uniformity. And you also serve as a final check on the power of state institutions and appoint their leaders, as well as serving as a final court of appeal."

"Provincial councils only exist in places too sparsely populated to have a charter city. Rural areas usually adopt legislation from the closest city. The system dates from when Equestria was feudal, and the ruler of the dukedom would rule from their city."

I nod. "Okay, so, that's actually a lot more manageable than I thought it would be. But does Twilight know any of the office holders? Their beliefs and habits? Enough that she could identify them by sight and know what she needs to keep an eye on?" She's thinking about it, and I think she sees where I'm going. "Heck, does she have any ideas about the sorts of policy that she'd like to see carried out? Does she know enough to oversee the institutions? Because if she doesn't, then everyone in the country suffers."

Celestia nods, eyes looking away as she starts to reconsider. "What do you suggest?"

"Firstly, give her advanced warning. Heck, she might not even want it, and if she doesn't then you're stuck until Cadence's eldest can take over the Crystal City."

Luna clears her throat.

"Or until Luna-." I turn to her. "I'm sorry, were you implying that you might eventually take the job, or that our eldest might?"

"We… Suppose either."

"Okay, well that's going to be even longer. Or you could switch to an alternate system for doing your job. But if you're set on her getting it, then she needs to either start shadowing you to learn the job, or get her own demesne to rule to learn it from that direction. How much bigger would Ponyville have to get to earn a city charter?"

"I could make an allowance, but it would be better if it were bigger. With perhaps three times the population it has now."

"Right. Sunset! What sort of enchanted artefacts do you have that we could establish a production line for? Ponyville needs a new primary industry to increase its order of service."

Dur'id the Druid · May 26, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Fearsome Sunburn, or whatever

Mr Zoat said:
I don't know what it would look like. If you want to control the sun

There's actually some really good art and fanfic to show that. Fear the Daybreaker Queen of ashes.

View: https://youtu.be/E8Oz1YqjB2I?si=E9l_kqJTlBkGg0e_

Chojin Patriarch · May 26, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
8th April 2013
10:37 GMT -7

That didn't take long.

Sunset plants her forehooves on the table. "You what?"

Well, I don't know what was just said, but it looks like Sunset is taking it poorly. To be fair, she'd be disposed to take anything said poorly right now, even after all this time to let her enmity settle. It's turning into that kind of day, it seems.

Luna doesn't exactly look impressed, either. "I too would request an explanation, Sister."

Celestia takes Sunset's response in her stride. Luna words on the other hand make her look quite uncomfortable. "It is something I found out… While I was trying to understand what had happened to you. Nightmare Moon was equal my height, and she hit me a good deal harder than I had ever seen you hit anypony."

I suppose it hurts more to see her sister responding so angrily. And now we get to see what they're discussing, eh?

"Nightmare Moon was a madmare wreathed in arcane shadow. I can increase my height with illusion just as well."

Celestia shakes her head. "No, it was more than that. Just as you shrank when-. When you returned, so there was a completeness about… Her, that granted her greater size and greater power."

A spell that... Advanced her development to a point where she could handle the increased power she was wielding, then? Much as Twilight appeared more royal in the distant finale scenes.

Luna's eyes narrow. "So if I wish to equal your height and power, I must once again descend into madness."

"Hah!" Three decidedly unhappy mares swivel their heads my way. "I just worked it out! If a pony has a special talent for violence, they can literally ascend through killing things! All the way! Harmony is horse apples!"

Not the time, Renegade. Unless you want to see what it feels like to get trampled by three alicorns at the same time.

Sunset's glare intensifies. "I knew that. What I didn't know is that Celestia had a spell for fully empowering an alicorn!"

Celestia sighs. "I didn't know that's what it did until I studied your research. I only knew that it had something to do with why Nightmare Moon was so strong, and-" She looks at Luna. "-I could not risk using something like that on you."

So rather than make it safe, she chose to hide it all away, never to be seen...

Sunset growls. "But you could have shown me the research!"

"It would do nothing to a normal pony-."

I suspect a part of her anger is about the hiding of knowledge, given her focus on research.

"It would have helped me understand the process!"

I raise my right forehoof. "So before we get totally off course,-" Sunset snorts. "-that explains how you expect Twilight to move the sun and moon. It doesn't explain why you haven't used it on Cadence."

As opposed to dumping several Alicorn's worth of magic on her at once, as happened during the Tirek thing.

Celestia's fur pinks slightly. "The spell causes physical growth. Shining Armor is a… Well built stallion, but-."

I lower my hoof. "Alright, say no more."

Like a chihuahua trying to service a great dane?

I mean, some guys are into size difference, but there are limits.

"And Cadence has no need for the additional power." I.. frown-. "If you are about to ask about the Sombra of this world, the solution to defeating Sombra was the Crystal Heart. Cadence isn't a fighter. Giving her that extra power wouldn't have allowed her to defeat him by confronting him directly."

On the other hand, she might have been able to do something to pacify him mentally. But I suppose that was too big a risk, given he'd shown his strength of will before.

Sunset grins her teeth so hard that I'm honestly worried that she's going to crack them.

"Yeeees, but the added endurance would have allowed her to maintain the shield for longer, and perhaps given Shining Armor more time to find the Heart without needing the bearerherd?"

I'm amazed she hasn't started to catch fire yet. If she's anything like Twilight, things probably tend to get incendiary when she's angry enough.

"Perhaps, but it was not required. Twilight found the Heart and Sombra was defeated."

I stare at her for a moment. This is the pony who has been doing Equestria's contingency planning for-. Oh Source.

What contingency planning... You just realise this now?

"Celestia, if you..? Not trying to be morbid here, but if you'd suddenly dropped dead, say, two hundred years ago, who would have managed the sun?"

"I have an amulet which can maintain the rotation of sun and moon. Had it come to it, the executor of my Will would have been granted access to it."

...An amulet, eh? Like, say, a certain amulet that caused some trouble in Ponyville that one time? Or was that perhaps a prototype of it?

Luna raises her eyebrows. "That thing still exists? We had assumed that it would have been lost, or fallen to pieces."

"No, I've still got it." Celestia looks thoughtful. "Though it has been some time since I checked on it. Perhaps it would be wise to do so today, just in case."

...Or maybe it's gone walkabout. Celestia really is that cavalier about these things, isn't she?

Yes, yes it would. "Alright, so it went you, then the amulet. Then what?"

"I included instructions on how to rebuild the amulet if it got damaged or destroyed."

...Right. And what about how it was made? How to make more if needed?

"In how many places?"

She blinks. "In the same locked chest as the amulet."

:headdesk: My goddess, how has Equestria lasted this long without exploding?

I'm unable to stop myself wincing. "Make copies, hide them in various places across the country. You can't put all your world-sustainingly-critical-stuff in one place. What about teaching ponies to do it themselves?"

She shakes her head. "Doing so drains the magic from unicorns. Starswirl's beard greyed prematurely from the strain of casting the spell, and he was often left unable to use any magic for most of the day. He told us that only alicorns can move the sun and moon without being drained."

Even in teams? Or do Unicorns need special training to combine their efforts like that?

I grin and nod. "Sunset! New research project! Find-."

"Just use more ponies, and add in pegasus ponies and earth ponies." She calms down a little as she works it out. "There's no real magical difference between an alicorn and a group of the three tribes working together other than the energy you need to sustain the link itself. Also, you both need to give me, Twilight and Cadence lessons on how to do it just in case."

Because a single point of failure in any system is always bad. There was a term I heard for that. The metric for 'how many people who can do this job can we afford to have hit by a bus?' (Or otherwise rendered unable to do it...)

I nod. "With the Mirror, my tube generators and the extra alicorns, that should be enough. But in the minds of most ponies, your whole 'controlling the sun' thing is a core sign that you're the ruler of the country. Twilight definitely needs training and practice before you abdicate." Ah. "And… Are you going to be alright not doing that any more?" She looks at me quizzically. "It's your special talent, after all. Usually, not being able to use those has adverse psychological side effects, and I wouldn't want Twilight to have to fight... Um, Fearsome Sunburn, or whatever."

Or, you know, make arrangements to automate the system somehow. A very well-protect automation method, to prevent inappropriate usage of it.

Celestia chuckles quietly, covering her muzzle with her right forehoof. "I don't think she has to worry about that. I've been raising the sun for over eleven hundred years. I won't go mad because I stopped."

"Okay, but if you start… I don't know what it would look like. If you want to control the sun, even if it's just for a day? Come back, get whoever's doing it to stop so you can do it." She looks hesitant. "You can do it in secret so as not to undermine Twilight."

Or simply make it clear that maybe, sometimes, you might want to do the job now and again.

"Very well."

"Okay, now, actual governance. As Luna's explained it to me, you generally don't alter the legal code, but serve as a check on city and provincial councils who do, so as to prevent overreach and ensure a degree of uniformity. And you also serve as a final check on the power of state institutions and appoint their leaders, as well as serving as a final court of appeal."

Boy, that sounds like a system rife for abuse, if she weren't spiritually incapable of being corrupt. ...Oh, wait.

"Provincial councils only exist in places too sparsely populated to have a charter city. Rural areas usually adopt legislation from the closest city. The system dates from when Equestria was feudal, and the ruler of the dukedom would rule from their city."

I nod. "Okay, so, that's actually a lot more manageable than I thought it would be. But does Twilight know any of the office holders? Their beliefs and habits? Enough that she could identify them by sight and know what she needs to keep an eye on?" She's thinking about it, and I think she sees where I'm going. "Heck, does she have any ideas about the sorts of policy that she'd like to see carried out? Does she know enough to oversee the institutions? Because if she doesn't, then everyone in the country suffers."

And before you suggest delegation, it at least behooves her to make sure that the people she delegating it to won't take advantage of things.

Celestia nods, eyes looking away as she starts to reconsider. "What do you suggest?"

"Firstly, give her advanced warning. Heck, she might not even want it, and if she doesn't then you're stuck until Cadence's eldest can take over the Crystal City."

Oh, yes. She didn't even consider that, did she? Twilight might literally crumple into a ball of OCD panic at the idea. Not everyone wants to take charge like that, and she does not strike me as one of them. Honestly, I think Twilight would rather curl up in her library, occasionally heading out to solve 'friendship' problems whenever driven to...

Luna clears her throat.

"Or until Luna-." I turn to her. "I'm sorry, were you implying that you might eventually take the job, or that our eldest might?"

Now that would be an interesting youngster. A mix of Equestrian and New God, and likely to be damn-near divine in their own right. A New God of Administration, perhaps, if they're so inclined...

"We… Suppose either."

"Okay, well that's going to be even longer. Or you could switch to an alternate system for doing your job. But if you're set on her getting it, then she needs to either start shadowing you to learn the job, or get her own demesne to rule to learn it from that direction. How much bigger would Ponyville have to get to earn a city charter?"

Even just getting her involved in the administration of the town might be a simple place to start, no expansion needed. Then have her scale up to a province.

"I could make an allowance, but it would be better if it were bigger. With perhaps three times the population it has now."

"Right. Sunset! What sort of enchanted artefacts do you have that we could establish a production line for? Ponyville needs a new primary industry to increase its order of service."

Somehow, I foresee this backfiring in some embarrassing way...

And for once, the Renegade has some very good points and reasonable concerns. So many things in the Equestrian government tie back to a single point of failure in Celestia. The folly of just dropping everything on an unprepared rookie was a bad idea to start with, and now Sunbutt can see it. Imagine the chaos if she'd gone through with her plan...

Darko · May 26, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Doing so drains the magic from unicorns. Starswirl's beard greyed prematurely from the strain of casting the spell, and he was often left unable to use any magic for most of the day. He told us that only alicorns can move the sun and moon without being drained."

And any other unicorn that tried may potentially die.

Starswirl was basically Pony Merlin, so he had power to spate, but others may not.

Mr Zoat said:
But in the minds of most ponies, your whole 'controlling the sun' thing is a core sign that you're the ruler of the country

Yeah.

Twilight may be a powerful magic user, but other ponies can do the same things she does, just not as strongly.

But controlling the sun definitely says "I'm top dog around here".

Mr Zoat said:
It's your special talent, after all. Usually, not being able to use those has adverse psychological side effects, and I wouldn't want Twilight to have to fight... Um, Fearsome Sunburn, or whatever."

Celestia is incredibly old, so she may be able to control that instinct.

Mr Zoat · May 26, 2024

Darko said:
Celestia is incredibly old, so she may be able to control that instinct.

Or be completely unable to resist it as it's been so long since she's done anything else.

Ugh, and I've just realised that I need to go back and change what Luna said about her age. If Celestia and Luna started controlling the day/night cycle at the same time. Luna has to be at least 100 years old.

Darko · May 26, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
Not the time, Renegade. Unless you want to see what it feels like to get trampled by three alicorns at the same time.

He might enjoy that.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Like a chihuahua trying to service a great dane? I mean, some guys are into size difference, but there are limits.

When it comes to fetishes, some people have no limits.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Even in teams? Or do Unicorns need special training to combine their efforts like that?

Or maybe the magic from several different sources would interfere with it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Or simply make it clear that maybe, sometimes, you might want to do the job now and again.

Or do small things that most people wouldn't notice, like making the day a bit more warmer for some foals to play.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, yes. She didn't even consider that, did she? Twilight might literally crumple into a ball of OCD panic at the idea. Not everyone wants to take charge like that, and she does not strike me as one of them

The saying that only those that don't want power should be the ones to receive it is, like a lot of sayings, missing out on a lot of things.

Some people don't seek power because they know they're not competent with wielding it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Now that would be an interesting youngster. A mix of Equestrian and New God, and likely to be damn-near divine in their own right

It might not be a hybrid.

If they're born on Earth 16 then they'll be a New God.

If they're born on the Equestria side then they'll be an Alicorn.

Ngamer11 · May 26, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Ugh, and I've just realised that I need to go back and change what Luna said about her age. If Celestia and Luna started controlling the day/night cycle at the same time. Luna has to be at least 100 years old.

When did Luna say how old she was?

Wivk · May 26, 2024

Ngamer11 said:
When did Luna say how old she was?

I feel like we were told she wasn't counting the time she was sealed or the time she was evil.

Mr Zoat · May 26, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
Not the time, Renegade. Unless you want to see what it feels like to get trampled by three alicorns at the same time.

It's more that he wanted to stop Luna and Sunset having a go at Celestia, so he redirected their attention to him to break their stride.

Ngamer11 said:
When did Luna say how old she was?

Here.

Mr Zoat said:
hed her full size, barring any further transformations." Circe frowns. "Do you know exactly how old she is? Sunset said that Celestia is over a thousand, but she wasn't able to find a precise figure."

"I would think so. Celestia is Our sister. She is one thousand and forty nine."

"One thousand-." I frown. "Really? I assumed-. But then you're only-."

"Forty six, if one discounts the time during which Nightmare Moon was in possession of Our body." She rolls her eyes. "Did you assume that We were some ancient demi-goddess? There are ponies in Our guard who are Our senior."

Edit: Changed it a little.

Doccer · May 26, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Right. Sunset! What sort of enchanted artefacts do you have that we could establish a production line for? Ponyville needs a new primary industry to increase its order of service."

Don't jump ahead you have to actually ask Twi.

Mr Zoat · May 26, 2024

Doccer said:
Don't jump ahead you have to actually ask Twi.

I think that being able to present Twilight with a potential solution is more likely to result in her considering the idea calmly and rationally.

Steelplaza · May 26, 2024

You really enjoy writing "Grayven dunking on Celestia" I guess, but at a certain point it comes across so one-sided that I wish you'd let her get one over on him sometime.

Mr Zoat · May 26, 2024

Steelplaza said:
You really enjoy writing "Grayven dunking on Celestia" I guess, but at a certain point it comes across so one-sided that I wish you'd let her get one over on him sometime.

Sure. I'll just need Celestia to canonically make better decisions.

Thundersmight94 · May 26, 2024

While I enjoy this story, I am still not a fan of Sunset. Believing yourself to be worthy of what is basically equivalent to Godhood is not the same as being worthy of it, and while she has partially disproven Celestia's bias towards friendship being the main thing necessary in Equestria, I do find it annoying that she complains about how she wasn't given the opportunity to have godhood just bestowed upon her because she deserved it by being really smart.

To me, the simple fact of the matter is that Sunset would have been a terrible Alicorn both in cannon and in the Renegade timeline if she never gained connections with others. In cannon that was due to twilight & renegade due to Grayven, but in both cases it was forced upon her, she never sought it herself, which I think would be telling on what her own style of governance would have been like without someone acting as a safety valve for her ego. Twilight however while kinda naïve, did at least consistently try to do what's best for the people around her after learning for herself the values of friendship and bonds with others.

Also, while Grayven has been helpful, I still feel like in the same sense, he still isn't always fair to judge Celestia, cause we have seen what he would do to take over or build an empire and it isn't pretty. He also isn't very withholding/restrictive of however he wants to turn into a New God because he feels like it's the simple option, which in turn I think would make him not fully agree or understand why Celestia didn't want to make Sunset an Alicorn.

Mr Zoat · May 26, 2024

Thundersmight94 said:
In cannon that was due to twilight & renegade due to Grayven

canon

Also, while Grayven has been helpful, I still feel like in the same sense, he still isn't always fair to judge Celestia, cause we have seen what he would do to take over or build an empire and it isn't pretty.

OG Grayven would definitely be worse than Celestia. But I'm not sure why you think the Renegade would be? He used brutal warfare to conquer and unify the Sheeda after they decided to fight amongst themselves and attacked him when he tried to help them. Once he was secure in his position he never again resorted to that level of violence, and once he could fix the universe he did.

He also isn't very withholding/restrictive of however he wants to turn into a New God because he feels like it's the simple option, which in turn I think would make him not fully agree or understand why Celestia didn't want to make Sunset an Alicorn.

As I understand it, Celestia does not canonically have the power to make ponies into alicorns. Certainly, she doesn't in this story. Sunset's statement on what she'd have done if she'd become an alicorn in this story was 'learn the magic of all three tribes and get earth ponies to do more with theirs', because while she clearly wanted recognition for her achievements I never saw her as wanting to do anything politically with Equestria. I don't see her as being entitled, I see her as getting increasingly annoyed at Celestia jerking her around and not explaining why she was doing what she was doing. Yes, making her into an alicorn -if she could- when she finally demanded it would have been a bad idea, but whose fault was it that things got that far?

Valint · May 26, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
I don't see her as being entitled, I see her as getting increasingly annoyed at Celestia jerking her around and not explaining why she was doing what she was doing. Yes, making her into an alicorn -if she could- when she finally demanded it would have been a bad idea, but whose fault was it that things got that far?

I feel like it would make sense if Celestia couldn't explain why she was doing what she was doing. I'd buy that the steps to becoming an alicorn needed to be done for the right reasons, not with the ulterior motive of becoming an alicorn, at which point you can't really explain.

That would be consistent with the way the Elements work, where knowing about the tests would make it harder to succeed in passing them. (Is there any way to qualify for the Element of Generosity if you know in advance what the test is?) That's my head-canon for why Starswirl never became an alicorn: he knew too much.

I'm not saying she's great at it, but I feel like "Celestia's an imperfect chessmaster" fits canon better than "she's an idiot."

So, if Celestia actually knew how Sunset could become an alicorn, but Step #N on the path was "Make some friends, 100% genuinely with no ulterior motives," then she was honestly answering Sunset's questions with as much information as she could, and Sunset fucked up by failing to read between the lines.

Vaermina · May 27, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Sure. I'll just need Celestia to canonically make better decisions.

I'd point out that to do better you as a writer literally had to rewrite the laws of reality so other options could work.

Mr Zoat · May 27, 2024

Valint said:
I feel like it would make sense if Celestia couldn't explain why she was doing what she was doing. I'd buy that the steps to becoming an alicorn needed to be done for the right reasons, not with the ulterior motive of becoming an alicorn, at which point you can't really explain.

That would be consistent with the way the Elements work, where knowing about the tests would make it harder to succeed in passing them. (Is there any way to qualify for the Element of Generosity if you know in advance what the test is?) That's my head-canon for why Starswirl never became an alicorn: he knew too much.

I'm not saying she's great at it, but I feel like "Celestia's an imperfect chessmaster" fits canon better than "she's an idiot."

So, if Celestia actually knew how Sunset could become an alicorn, but Step #N on the path was "Make some friends, 100% genuinely with no ulterior motives," then she was honestly answering Sunset's questions with as much information as she could, and Sunset fucked up by failing to read between the lines.

Sure, I accept that Celestia's plan required Sunset not to know what the plan was, but at a certain point she should have realised that it wasn't working and that a new approach was needed.

Sunset went to a magic school with a cutie mark in magic, aced a magic test to be allowed in and was offered the opportunity to learn magic from Princess Celestia. She therefore expected to be learning magic, which I think is a pretty reasonable expectation on her part given that no one told her otherwise and -as far as I can tell- there isn't a field called 'harmony magic' that she could have picked up at any point.

And then Celestia took Twilight as her next student. Twilight did make friends -Moondancer and Company- and they played no role in beating Nightmare Moon at all.

I suspect that Starswirl never ascended because he was a terrible friend. See his treatment of Stygian.

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