With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · 2025-08-17T11:01:30+0100

Mr Zoat said:
27th July 2013
10:24 GMT -7

"Ah, Grayven?" Starlight looks up at me in surprise as I trot into her office. "I didn't know you were visiting today?" She smiles awkwardly, but less awkwardly than she used to so I'm calling that progress. "Is this a surprise inspection?"

Looking in on Starlight Glimmer, eh? Her little 'crusade' against Cutie Mark fetishism/enslavement amongst ponykind. Wonder what progress she's made into removing Equestria's reliance on them...

"Oh, no, I just…" Uh. "Are you aware that Sunset Shimmer has been taking Twilight Sparkle to cult survivor-" Starlight flinches. "-meetings? Was that a 'yes'?"

"No… But… How does that work, exactly? The.. cult thing, I mean."

She should understand pony cults, that's for sure. She led one, after all. Or at least what sure seemed like a cult, albeit one enforced by the removal of Cutie Marks...

"Well, humans aren't herd animals in quite the same way that ponies are, but they can be… Ah, 'brainwashed' into herd-like obedience by people who know how to manipulate certain instinctive behavioural patterns. But it's not unbreakable, and if people who are heading in that direction can talk it through with other people who've been in the same position, it… Helps."

Human psychology is weird, sometimes. As much the rational wise ape as the instinct-driven foolish one.

"Huh." Starlight looks thoughtful. "I didn't know Princess Twilight was interested in human psychology. Do you.. think they'd mind if I tagged along?"

"Ah-. Probably not? But Sunset was taking Twilight because she feels that Twilight has a cultist-like reverence for Celestia that's not healthy for her, so she's encouraging her to meet people who've been in a similar position. I don't think Twilight's.. really picking up on that, but it.. gets Sunset out of the house and socialising and that's the main thing."

And any interaction between them may well lead to other things. Remember that 7-point Harmony strike in Equestria Girls 2? That was significant, I just know it.

"I've never been a cult member before-. But I suppose the entire pony species' obsession with special talents is pretty similar."

"Not exactly, because there's no charismatic leader-. But we're getting away from the point. I went to Twilight to talk to her about it, and we got onto the topic of her opening a school-."

Ah, yes, her poorly-thought out plan. Honestly, I could see this Twilight's ideas resulting in the G5 Equestria, if the Renegade hadn't poked his hoof in.

"Like Sunset's magic school in the human world?"

"No, it was some sort of friendship theology school. Point is, it came up that she never formally graduated from Celestia's school, so-."

Amazed Starlight didn't start laughing at that, but she's hardly the sort to display that level of schadenfreude openly.

Poof!

I turn my head, immediately spotting the somewhat-frazzled Twilight, the flash of her teleportation fading as she jerks her head maniacally around. I raise my right forehoof in her direction.

...Has she set up some sort of alert when someone mentions that, or is there something else going on?

"Twilight-!"

Poof!

And she's gone again.

That doesn't seem optimal...

Hurr.

"So she's gotten a bit scatty, and I thought I'd be here so that Celestia can shout at me without having to travel to Ponyville. But in the meantime, I thought that I'd check up on you."

How thoughtful of him. I'm sure his future sister-in-law will appreciate the consideration.

She nods. "So you do want a status update on my projects."

"No, I mean… Heh, if anyone should be aware of the folly of treating someone as being purely a repository for their special talent, it's you. I respect the work you've been doing, but I don't want to chain you to your laboratory."

Consider it an informal update. A friend asking how things are going.

She frowns. "But I like my laboratory. I'm making progress fixing things here."

"You mean…. You're exercising your special talent and doing nothing else."

Ironically, the very thing she was railing against, isn't it?

She draws herself up, takes a deep breath, and then sags slightly. "I… Guess..? But until I can fix… Whatever it is that stops ponies learning things after their special talent gets removed, I can't just get rid of it."

Oh dear. "Troubleshoes still struggling to pick up new skills?"

Huh. That seems an interesting complication. Hope Mr comically-unlucky has been doing well, though.

She sighs. "Yes! I should have known it wouldn't be so easy, but the moment I saw his cutie marks removed and he started being able to walk across a room without destroying it, I thought I'd… Arrived, you know? And then I started doing the cognition testing-. Just as you suggested, and it's virtually impossible for him to learn new skills. And I'm comparing to how he learned things while he still had his mark. We even gave it back to him to make sure it hadn't damaged his brain, and he immediately went back to being able to learn normally. And yet, unmarked foals can learn new skills without cutie marks just fine."

Peculiar. Maybe it's something about the manner of removal? After all, foals sort-of do have their Cutie Marks, merely unexpressed at first, don't they?

I nod sympathetically. "I didn't think you'd be able to solve the problem in a few months. I assume that it's not just him?"

"No, I was able to replicate my findings with my other volunteers. I'd.. like to find out what it feels like for myself, but I can't take the risk of losing my special talent in magic. It's just so-. Frustrating."

"Oh? Do you want to get rid of your special talent? I didn't think it came with a downside."

Definitely a concern. If her mark-manipulating talent can't be replicated, then in the end, this is mostly just poking stuff with a stick and watching the twitches.

So, basic early science.

She sighs. "I know it will make using magic harder, but I'd feel like I'd earned it, not just been given it by… Chance, or-" She waves her right forehoof. "-however it works. And I don't know what having this special talent is preventing me from doing. Just because it's not as overt as Troubleshoe's sabotage, that doesn't mean it's not happening. And I wouldn't even know about it."

To be fair, most people are content in that state. The comfort of knowing what you're best at in life... It's reassuring. So you can see why most wouldn't look the horse gift in the mouth.

I nod. "I suppose that if the reversals so far haven't had any adverse effects, you could just increase your staff."

She slumps against her desk. "I wish. Do you know how rare pure magic special talents are?"

"Given that there's a whole school for gifted unicorns, reasonably common?"

I don't know. There's probably a difference between 'talent for specific magic' like most Unicorns, and 'extreme generalist' or 'Thaumaturgical Sciences prodigy'.

She shakes her head. "Most students have a magic-related talent. Having somepony have a talent in all forms of magic is really rare. Unheard of, actually." I frown. "Twilight only actually knows less than a dozen spells. Most of her most impressive feats are using really strong thaumokinesis, magic blasts or the Elements of Harmony. I'm a technically better spell caster, but I struggle a lot with research and theory. My special talent wants me to learn by doing, which is fine for me but doesn't let me explain what I'm doing to other people, and… Can result in me just repeating other ponies' work without realising it."

Admittedly, a lot of Twilight's stuff is just ad-hoc improvised castings. Or magical accidents. Or maybe just having a sense for 'Where can I find a spell to do this thing?' that leads her by the nose to her goal.

"What about Sunset?"

Starlight nods. "She's the closest I can think of to a theoretical 'pure' magic talent. I haven't noticed any weaknesses, and she sure hasn't mentioned having any. But does that mean that she actually doesn't, or just that she isn't noticing it?"

If anything, Sunset is more 'Can dig into the mechanics of magic and break it down to create new things.' If anything, them working together would be interesting: Starlight and Twilight creating new spell applications off-the-hoof, and Sunset analysing their actions to reverse-engineer it into a form anyone can learn.

"Alright. So how about getting someone who can cover your weakness." She winces, averting her gaze. "Problem?"

She loosens her muscles, breathing in slowly, holding, and then breathing out again. "You.. said that ponies are herd animals. Do you know what pony herd structures are actually like?"

Loosely, families with strong male and/or female leaders, right? Hence why Celestia is instinctively followed. She's so like a 'big mummy pony' that others reflexively do what she asks them to.

"I know what primitive pony herd structures are like on Earth."

"It's.. probably the same thing. And you're… Research shows that ponies instinctively see the Princesses as a cross between 'mom' and 'lead mare', and I'm pretty sure that I'm instinctively seeing you as 'herd stallion'."

I suspect it's more than the size difference, of course. Or things like the Renegade's Conquest Godname.

"Ah, no offence intended, but I consider my relationship with Luna-."

She blushes, recoiling. "I don't mean like that. I mean, I instinctively feel safe around you-"

Admittedly, he has been getting into less dangerous situations, at least on-screen. Semi-retired, wasn't it?

I shrug. "I'm glad-."

"-which is irrational, but-." She huffs. "When I was a filly, I used to do research with a guy called Sunburst. He was way better at theory than me. And then… Some things happened, and I haven't seen him for a while."

'Old boyfriend' embarrassment, or something more hostile?

"I learned from Sunset that I should enquire what 'some things' are in advance."

"What? Oh, I got angry about him getting accepted into…" She looks around. "This school, when I didn't. That was when I started realising that there was something wrong with cutie marks."

Okay, that's the sort of thing that can be overcome just by, you know, talking to him.

"But… You're a magic talent. Why didn't you get accepted?"

"You can't apply before you get your cutie mark. He got his before me. And I… Probably could have applied a few months later when I got mine, but at that point I was too focused on overcoming the system to want to."

Heh, the joy of traumatic childhood experiences shaping a lifetime of bad decisions. Fortunately she's starting to overcome that.

"Alright. Write a letter to him and offer him a job. The worst that can happen is that he could say 'no'."

"It's just… I haven't spoken to him since… Which, okay, wasn't the most sensible thing to do. It wasn't his fault that he got his mark when he did. And the orphanage staff probably didn't even ask him before they sent the application in. It's just… It's a bit awkward."

Ah, worried he'll take one look and slam the door in your face? Awkward, but not impossible to overcome.

"Do you want me to come with you and hold your hoof?"

She opens her mouth to reply, then closes it again, looking thoughtful.

"Maybe a little?"

If nothing else, his presence will lend matters a little formal weight.

Perhaps one thing Starlight can work on is reproducing the spell effect which lets her manipulate and remove or reapply Cutie Marks? Once a few ponies can do it as flawlessly as she can, things can get a bit more scientific about it. Perhaps this guy can help with that. Something to consider...

Mquz · 2025-08-17T12:19:31+0100

Huh… are pony harems a thing in this version of the universe? That seems to be part of what she's implying.

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-17T12:39:35+0100

Mquz said:
Huh… are pony harems a thing in this version of the universe? That seems to be part of what she's implying.

No herd marriages were shown in the series. In this story, Luna asked Grayven about it when he spend centuries in the far future with Artemis.

Ancient ponies had the same structure as real ponies. Martial herds have one stallion, the mares and their foals. Bachelor herds have mareless stallions. Herd stallions who lost a fight go die on their own. I imagine that started changing as they gained the ability to use harmony magic, which would work against their instinctive competitiveness.

It wouldn't surprise me if herd marriages were technically legal in Equestria, in much the same way that cousin marriage is technically legal in England. You can do it, but English people don't. Fuck you King Henry VIII.

TheOneTrueDemonLord · 2025-08-17T12:52:33+0100

Yay, Grayven

Steelplaza · 2025-08-17T15:30:39+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"-which is irrational, but-." She huffs. "When I was a filly, I used to do research with a guy called Sunburst. He was way better at theory than me. And then… Some things happened, and I haven't seen him for a while."

Very amusing that she phrased in a way where if it was humans you would assume it was romantic troubles, but it's ponies so of course it was a friendship fight.

Agumentic · 2025-08-17T16:13:25+0100

It's really funny that Grayven's dad energy is so strong it crosses species and universes.

Speaking of troubled young adults, I wonder when this timeline's EradiKara plotline comes to a head.

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-17T16:23:41+0100

Agumentic said:
Speaking of troubled young adults, I wonder when this timeline's EradiKara plotline comes to a head.

Not particular soon. The program knows that it can't rebuild krypton with children, and is happy enough to accept alien servants. This issues will start to come once the clones reach adulthood.

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-17T16:35:47+0100

Wegr1234 said:
I have to tell you this:

In Young Justice in the Phantom Zone Dru-Zod had under his control each Kryptonian who was sent to the Phantom Zone and Kal-El knows nothing of any Kryptonian who was sent to the Phantom Zone, he knows nothing of them, until Dru and his followers escape from the Phantom Zone during season 4 of Young Justice

I just realised, this bit is actually fine. Original timeline Superman didn't have Har-Zod's records.

Thundersmight94 · 2025-08-17T17:21:35+0100

I don't think it's really fair to equate human mentality on a species of sentient ponies. To them having a herd mentality makes sense, because it's probably engrained in their instincts.

PDV · 2025-08-17T17:35:43+0100

Mr Zoat said:
The Maori look different from English-descended New Zealanders.

So do Hispanic people. Almost all of which have mestizo ancestry, especially since it's self-identified and those without ancestry generally choose not to identify. Some aren't visibly distinguishable to most Anglos, because it's one native out of sixteen great-great-grandparents or because white people frequently can't distinguish 'black' and 'black-mestizo mixed-race', but they do look different.

There are some weird cases where a white guy who's lived among, married to, and the father of Hispanics chooses to self-identify as Hispanic* but that's like 0.01%; Hispanic is overwhelmingly a cluster of ethnicities.

*Not hypothetical. Details are politics.

xSieg · 2025-08-17T19:54:56+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Not particular soon. The program knows that it can't rebuild krypton with children, and is happy enough to accept alien servants. This issues will start to come once the clones reach adulthood.

Surprisingly pragmatic for a krypto-supremacist bot. Is it Kara's influence over the program or was his maker in-universe just more rational than the Council at the time?

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-17T20:32:03+0100

xSieg said:
Surprisingly pragmatic for a krypto-supremacist bot. Is it Kara's influence over the program or was his maker in-universe just more rational than the Council at the time?

Not really. In the comics, when the Eradicator program took over Superman, it was happy to try and maintain his Clark Kent identity until it got annoyed with humans being stupid. And even then it didn't try and wipe humans out, it just accepted being fired and focused on being Superman full time. Why would it attack Tamaranean servants when they're being servants to glorious krypton?

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-18T06:17:51+0100

23rd July 2013
09:38 GMT

Huh…

"Lantern? Have you learned something?"

"It's not intelligent."

The old woman frowns at me. "Why did you think it was intelligent?"

"I didn't." I look up from my microscope construct. "I'm an Orange Lantern. I'm primarily a military officer who dabbles in police work and philosophy. I'm not a physician. I can clearly see the disease. It's a single cell organism. I can even decode what its D.N.A. should allow it to do. What I can't understand is why what it should be doing is clearly not what it's actually doing."

"Because you study the corporeal and mundane, Lantern."

"No. That's why I said 'it's not intelligent'. My capacity to analyse the arcane is far weaker than my ability to analyse the corporeal, but I can do it. I know that more than the physical exists, and I can say with certainty that these cells have no desires of their own. I don't know why they create the symptoms that they do. I don't know why your people aren't able to resist it. And I-."

"I may."

"You may..?"

She nods towards the microscope. "Let me see."

I stand aside, and she takes my position, staring down the magnifier.

"Most of our people were born down on the planet's surface. But in my youth I dallied in Izaya's mighty city."

"Is that where you learned medicine?"

"You are from a primitive world, are you not? The Guardians were fond of recruiting from such places."

"Define 'primitive'. Earth's technology is highly variable."

"You were hunter-gatherers, once. Then your kind taught themselves farming and some of your people began to settle in place, ensuring that their food supply was reliable but experiencing a plethora of new problems. Consensus replaced by the reign of god-kings, the accumulation of waste encouraging the spread of diseases, sedentary life promoting physical weakness and the brief struggles of bands of wanderers replaced by true war."

"I know that pattern has been replicated on a thousand worlds. More, most likely."

"And the primitive people they left behind?"

"Almost everywhere they were conquered by the better organised and more prosperous civilisations that actually built things. There are subsistence farmers in a few places, but true hunter-gatherers hang on only in the most isolated places."

"And you have contempt for them."

"I have contempt for that way of life. The people I treat with as I find them."

"And you have contempt for us. You see us as them, only worse because we can see the shining city in the sky and actively turn from it."

"That's a non-unfair way to describe my feelings. Treating this disease would be far easier with the technology of Supertown."

"Is there nowhere on your world where people from cities have returned to simpler ways of life?"

"South America, effectively. Though I don't know what the long term effects of that choice will be. They might be able to replace chemical and technological medicine with magic, or they may simply accept the higher rate of death. Is that what you did?"

"After the fall of the Old Gods, New Genesis gave us much. But some always sought more."

"I wouldn't ever criticise someone for seeking more than they have. But Highfather Izaya has the Source's approval. He isn't violating any fundamental covenant."

"There is more to fundamental magic than upholding your end of your bargains."

"It's natural for change to create new problems. That doesn't mean that stasis is the correct route."

"We 'Primitives' did not choose stasis. The eldest of us knew that life and walked away from it. We cast aside what did not serve us."

"Then… Good luck fixing that disease without what you walked away from."

"If it was Highfather's people who created it, the problem is not that we stepped away. It is that they did not."

"You can't control how other people behave. Not unless you've mastered the Anti-Life Equation."

She jerks her head around and stares at me, perhaps trying to deduce how I even know what that is.

Finding nothing, she returns her attention to her work. "I would advise against thinking about such things too readily."

"It's not that I want to. But Earth spent a month languishing under its effects. Many people died, and others lost themselves to it."

"And you avoided it?"

"No, not really. I'm just a hard target. Anti-Life is a lie, and I've trained myself to recognise that instinctively."

"Even those who maintain a sense of themselves after they are exposed, the taint can linger-."

"And when we purged the Earth of it, I was at ground zero. That should have dealt with any lingering influence."

"How did you purge it?"

"The combined power of seven different power rings used together on the focal point of the infection. Though according to Canis, the form of the Anti-Life we experienced is incomplete."

"Apokoliptian dogma."

"I suspected, but I can't prove it either way." I tap the microscope. "Learned anything?"

"It is as I feared. These cells are merely a vessel for a greater power, a manifestation of corruption. Its nature-."

"Is contrary to yours, so it bypasses your defences. So, what, we can't cure it?"

"It can be cured, once we have a better idea of its fundamental nature so that I can find something contrary to that."

"And how do we find that?"

"There are several approaches which we could pursue. But your best path leads you to K'Zandr the Oracle. We must know the origin of the disease, and if it is artificial then the ones who spread it will be long gone."

"As a Themysciran, I'm well used to the idea of consulting an oracle prior to a heroic mission. Just tell me where to find her."

Chojin Patriarch · 2025-08-18T06:51:50+0100

Mr Zoat said:
23rd July 2013
09:38 GMT

Huh…

"Lantern? Have you learned something?"

All right, then, OL. Gives us the breakdown, the good news and bad news. What is it, what's causing it, and how do you fix it, hmmm? Or are you getting frustrated by a lack of progress? So many possibilities.

"It's not intelligent."

The old woman frowns at me. "Why did you think it was intelligent?"

Because there are intelligent and hostile microbial life-forms out there in the universe. Who's to say a colony of one didn't crash to earth on a meteorite or something?

"I didn't." I look up from my microscope construct. "I'm an Orange Lantern. I'm primarily a military officer who dabbles in police work and philosophy. I'm not a physician. I can clearly see the disease. It's a single cell organism. I can even decode what its D.N.A. should allow it to do. What I can't understand is why what it should be doing is clearly not what it's actually doing."

Ah. So it's empowered by something higher.

"Because you study the corporeal and mundane, Lantern."

"No. That's why I said 'it's not intelligent'. My capacity to analyse the arcane is far weaker than my ability to analyse the corporeal, but I can do it. I know that more than the physical exists, and I can say with certainty that these cells have no desires of its own. I don't know why they create the symptoms that they do. I don't know why your people aren't able to resist it. And I-."

Ah, the fun of coming to blows with the locals over differences in outlook. Did she really try the 'It's beyond your mundane understanding...' gag?

"I may."

"You may..?"

She nods towards the microscope. "Let me see."

It makes sense, if she's a local healer. More familiar with local parasitic and microbial lifeforms, virii and pathogens...

I stand aside, and she takes my position, staring down the magnifier.

"Most of our people were born down on the planet's surface. But in my youth I dallied in Izaya's mighty city."

A defector from decadence, eh? Too bored by the easy life? Ill at ease with some philosophical difference?

"Is that where you learned medicine?"

"You are from a primitive world, are you not? The Guardians were fond of recruiting from such places."

"Define 'primitive'. Earth's technology is highly variable."

Pre-interstellar flight, I suspect is the key point she's asking about.

"You were hunter-gatherers, once. Then your kind taught themselves farming and some of your people began to settle in place, ensuring that their food supply was reliable but experiencing a plethora of new problems. Consensus replaced by the reign of god-kings, the accumulation of waste encouraging the spread of diseases, sedentary life promoting physical weakness and the brief struggles of bands of wanderers replaced by true war."

Yeah, that about sums up human history.

"I know that pattern has been replicated on a thousand worlds. More, most likely."

"And the primitive people they left behind?"

It rarely ends well for them unless the developing civilisations are especially enlightened.

"Almost everywhere they were conquered by the better organised and more prosperous civilisations that actually built things. There are subsistence farmers in a few places, but true hunter-gatherers hang on only in the most isolated places."

"And you have contempt for them."

More contempt for the perceived laziness that not advancing implies. Though he's understanding of extenuating circumstances, I expect. Locales too harsh to farm, too limited to settle or resource-poor to develop.

"I have contempt for that way of life. The people I treat with as I find them."

"And you have contempt for us. You see us as them, only worse because we can see the shining city in the sky and actively turn from it."

Whereas for the Primitives here, it's largely an ideological choice, not a limitation. They decided to abandon advancement in that way...

"That's a non-unfair way to describe my feelings. Treating this disease would be far easier with the technology of Supertown."

"Is there nowhere on your world where people from cities have returned to simpler ways of life?"

Yeah, but generally even they consider making use of modern developments where their religion allows, especially when life and limb are on the line...

"South America, effectively. Though I don't know what the long term effects of that choice will be. They might be able to replace chemical and technological medicine with magic, or they may simply accept the higher rate of death. Is that what you did?"

"After the fall of the Old Gods, New Genesis gave us much. But some always sought more."

Ah. More ease, more comfort, more laziness?

"I wouldn't ever criticise someone for seeking more than they have. But Highfather Izaya has the Source's approval. He isn't violating any fundamental covenant."

"There is more to fundamental magic than upholding your end of your bargains."

Ah, so this is something tied to their power? Drawing upon the natural, untainted world for their power?

"It's natural for change to create new problems. That doesn't mean that stasis is the correct route."

"We 'Primitives' did not choose stasis. The eldest of us knew that life and walked away from it. We cast aside what did not serve us."

And those on Supertown probably look down on you for it. I mean, morally, not just literally physically.

Well, those who weren't there when you left, which would be increasingly few over time.

"Then… Good luck fixing that disease without what you walked away from."

"If it was Highfather's people who created it, the problem is not that we stepped away. It is that they did not."

Don't go looking for trouble where it might not be warranted, you know.

"You can't control how other people behave. Not unless you've mastered the Anti-Life Equation."

She jerks her head around and stares at me, perhaps trying to deduce how I even know what that is.

Could just be shock he'd try to reduce such a fundamental violation of free will to such a petty metaphor.

Finding nothing, she returns her attention to her work. "I would advise against thinking about such things too readily."

"It's not that I want to. But Earth spent a month languishing under its effects. Many people died, and others lost themselves to it."

And the effects haven't just gone away. Spiritual healing from the White Light aside, the memories and trauma are still present.

"And you avoided it?"

"No, not really. I'm just a hard target. Anti-Life is a lie, and I've trained myself to recognise that instinctively."

Though even you aren't totally immune, especially when it's piped into you via sympathetic magic.

"Even those who maintain a sense of themselves after they are exposed, the taint can linger-."

"And when we purged the Earth of it, I was at ground zero. That should have dealt with any lingering influence."

'Should' is a big thing to take the chance on, though.

"How did you purge it?"

"The combined power of seven different power rings used together on the focal point of the infection. Though according to Canis, the form of the Anti-Life we experienced is incomplete."

If it had been the totality of it, you wouldn't have been able to put up that resistance, after all.

"Apokoliptian dogma."

"I suspected, but I can't prove it either way." I tap the microscope. "Learned anything?"

A nice little philosophical diversion, but there is an epidemic at hand to be sorted out.

"It is as I feared. These cells are merely a vessel for a greater power, a manifestation of corruption. Its nature-."

"Is contrary to yours, so it bypasses your defences. So, what, we can't cure it?"

So it is some manner of New God involved, then. A New God of, what, Disease? Biological warfare?

"It can be cured, once we have a better idea of its fundamental nature so that I can find something contrary to that."

"And how to we find that?"

That honestly makes sense for the Narrative-driven aspect of New God natures.

"There are several approaches which we could pursue. But your best path leads you to K'Zandr the Oracle. We must know the origin of the disease, and if it is artificial then the ones who spread it will be long gone."

"As a Themysciran, I'm well used to the idea of consulting an oracle prior to a heroic mission. Just tell me where to find her."

Heh. A conceptual reference to Cassandra, eh? Kirby and his imitators always did like to reference the old myths...

Interesting, but fitting that this follow the beats of a heroic legend. As long as it doesn't end with a Hero falling prey to their own hubris. So, then, the infection is channeling something fundamentally opposed to the Primitives' nature? I wonder what, and what they'll have to employ to counter that. Hopefully it won't be something unworkable.

Signaller · 2025-08-18T06:58:42+0100

Hasn't OL been able to use the Honden in the past to trace desires back from material objects, thus finding the source of things?

BoML · 2025-08-18T07:19:41+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"And how to we find that?"

Bolded part should be "do".

Darko · 2025-08-18T07:33:50+0100

Chojin Patriarch said:
A defector from decadence, eh? Too bored by the easy life? Ill at ease with some philosophical difference?

Or it could have been something like a rumspringa.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And those on Supertown probably look down on you for it. I mean, morally, not just literally physically. Well, those who weren't there when you left, which would be increasingly few over time

They are immortal, so there could still be a lot of them.

Duke Long · 2025-08-18T08:12:09+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"No. That's why I said 'it's not intelligent'. My capacity to analyse the arcane is far weaker than my ability to analyse the corporeal, but I can do it. I know that more than the physical exists, and I can say with certainty that these cells have no desires of its own. I don't know why they create the symptoms that they do. I don't know why your people aren't able to resist it. And I-."

'their'

So what is the actual argument of the primitivist elder? Is she saying that without advanced technology they are incapable of doing evil stuff like making arcanobioweapons?

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-18T08:31:41+0100

BoML said:
Bolded part should be "do".

Duke Long said:
'their'

Thank you, corrected.

Bud-E · 2025-08-18T10:47:41+0100

Why isn't Paul sending scans to Vril Dox or Hinon? They are experts, and even if they don't know what the disease is, they could give him more info?

Mr Zoat · 2025-08-18T10:53:40+0100

Bud-E said:
Why isn't Paul sending scans to Vril Dox or Hinon? They are experts, and even if they don't know what the disease is, they could give him more info?

Because that's NEMO work, and he's doing League work. That's not necessarily a good reason, but if you asked him that's what he'd say. He wouldn't reach out unless he ran out of avenues to investigate himself or encountered overwhelming evidence that he needed to.

Steelplaza · 2025-08-18T14:55:24+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"There are several approaches which we could pursue. But your best path leads you to K'Zandr the Oracle. We must know the origin of the disease, and if it is artificial then the ones who spread it will be long gone."

Even from that one panel in the wiki entry, I can tell she's going to be a treat. I can even sort of imagine why she is like that.

When you're an oracle with a name that resembles "Cassandra" you probably have a lot of people not believing your prophecies. But with sufficient application of sarcasm and "old granny scolding" maybe she can get through sometimes.

Duke Long said:
So what is the actual argument of the primitivist elder? Is she saying that without advanced technology they are incapable of doing evil stuff like making arcanobioweapons?

I don't think she's putting her whole heart into the argument because really what's the point in arguing with this Orange Lantern? But as near as I can tell, she's saying that "wanting more" is spiritually unsatisfying and leads to unhappiness because the desire for more can never be satiated, while being satisfied with what New Genesis provides from the forest leads to a life of contentment. In other words, desire is the root of unhappiness. Not an argument that is going to get a lot of traction with an orange lantern, but there are certainly philosophies here in the real world that say the same thing.

mastermenthe · 2025-08-18T15:34:19+0100

Steelplaza said:
Not an argument that is going to get a lot of traction with an orange lantern, but there are certainly philosophies here in the real world that say the same thing.

OL could be convinced to respect this philosophy by a Xianxia Bhuddist. A cultivator whose follows the Dao Of The Primitives can and will achieve ever greater heights of power. It's just a shame that New Gods cannot grow stronger through cultivation.

mastermenthe · 2025-08-18T15:38:55+0100

Chojin Patriarch said:
Heh. A conceptual reference to Cassandra, eh? Kirby and his imitators always did like to reference the old myths...

Following the link to Ksandr led me to Pythia, which has some alarming statements to make: Pythia is immune to the Omega Sanction Beams, and presumably Ksandr is as well by being her counterpart.

Also, what the heck are the "Oracle(s) of Highfather/Darkside"? The wiki states Ksandr/Pythia can access the Oracle(s) but are not the Oracle themselves, as though an Oracle is a device like a Motherbox?

Vaermina · 2025-08-18T16:46:45+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"No. That's why I said 'it's not intelligent'. My capacity to analyse the arcane is far weaker than my ability to analyse the corporeal, but I can do it. I know that more than the physical exists, and I can say with certainty that these cells have no desires of their own. I don't know why they create the symptoms that they do. I don't know why your people aren't able to resist it. And I-."

Mr Zoat said:
"It is as I feared. These cells are merely a vessel for a greater power, a manifestation of corruption. Its nature-."

Orange Lantern really needs to stop being so authoritative with his guesses.

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