With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Coltsguy]

"The border's, like, three light years back. How would you like to be the first human to see a vorlon planet from orbit?"

"I-."

"Too late!"

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That is goddamn adorable.

 

[Vaermina]

The Shadows don't actually. While all the First Ones like Hyperspace because they are all advanced enough to fuck with it to a similar manner to the Forerunners and Slipspace, the Shadows are the undisputed masters of Hyperspace. They can even warp Hyperspace into wormholes.

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Yes? I did mention that.

You might be thinking about how the Shadows can all phase into their own personal dimension.

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Yes, and that phase space can be used for travel between points.

However, if he manages to completely no-sell the Vorlons' defense systems, flying straight to their leadership to drop Lyta off, that would basically put Paul almost on the level of Santa Claus annually invading Apokolips to give Darkseid a lump of coal.

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"No-selling" the basic automated defenses, which are anything but basic, would trigger one of three "step up" responses from the Vorlon defense system.

1) A controlled nova shaped to blast him out of existence.
2) A jump retreat that would move the planet back towards the core of the Vorlon empire which has stronger defenses.
3) A time stop that freezes the system in time until the Vorlon's decide to reverse it.

Unless they decide to be cautious and not immediately blow up someone that's an agent of a peer power.

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General reminder that the Vorlon's have generally hostile relations with all other "peer" powers with the exception of The Speakers.

And that bypassing approved borders and contact methods and FTLing directly over one of their worlds is a hostile act.

And that Vorlon planetary defenses are literally programmed to automatically obliterate anything not Vorlon.

Power rings are bullshit.

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Not by First One standards they aren't.

By First One standards Power Rings are generic energy effector devices with an unusual power source.

 

[Darko]

General reminder that the Vorlon's have generally hostile relations with all other "peer" powers with the exception of The Speakers.

And that bypassing approved borders and contact methods and FTLing directly over one of their worlds is a hostile act.

And that Vorlon planetary defenses are literally programmed to automatically obliterate anything not Vorlon

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I'll repeat this one more time: they may not want to immediately fire on someone that belongs to a peer power, because with their war with the Shadows, they may not want to get another side involved if they can avoid it.

Not by First One standards they aren't.

By First One standards Power Rings are generic energy effector devices with an unusual power source

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Except power rings are still incredibly advanced and powerful.

And Zoat has said that he'll be focusing on things that happened in the show, not in materials like RPG books, and in the show, the Vorlons aren't exactly Stargate Ancients when it comes to tech or power.

 

[Vaermina]

I'll repeat this one more time: they may not want to immediately fire on someone that belongs to a peer power, because with their war with the Shadows, they may not want to get another side involved if they can avoid it.

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Not how it works, unless the Vorlon's know someone is coming, or they have a vorlon gifted passkey, the defense systems are programed to automatically destroy them.

Also you really seem set on ignoring the fact that ignoring "no entry" warnings, which the Vorlon border stations transmit, and violating borders like that is standard grounds for even real life military's to immediately open fire.

Like, this isn't Paul arriving to visit at an open port, it's Paul ignoring the "no entry" signs around area 51, jumping the fence, and getting caught as he tries to pry open one of the hanger doors to see what's inside.

Except power rings are still incredibly advanced and powerful.

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But less advanced and powerful then Technomage Implants as Power Rings require an exterior power source and can only manipulate a single energy type without the utilization of a secondary or tertiary medium.

And Zoat has said that he'll be focusing on things that happened in the show, not in materials like RPG books, and in the show, the Vorlons aren't exactly Stargate Ancients when it comes to tech or power.

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Ironically the show/movie Vorlon's are probably more advanced then the Stargate Ancients with the single exception of their FTL speed.

Because in the shows/movies alone Vorlons are shown to be capable of destroying planets, creating pockets of space time capable of containing entire solar systems, throwing around celestial bodies, manipulating time, tearing apart multi-kilometer space stations with their bare tentacles, genetically re-engineering species, and possessed of stellar distance psychic powers.

In fact, the non-show/movie material actually makes them less powerful because it quantifies their capabilities instead of leaving them functionally at the point of "this insane thing looked to be really easy for them".

 

[Darko]

Ironically the show/movie Vorlon's are probably more advanced then the Stargate Ancients with the single exception of their FTL speed.

Because in the shows/movies alone Vorlons are shown to be capable of destroying planets, creating pockets of space time capable of containing entire solar systems, throwing around celestial bodies, manipulating time, tearing apart multi-kilometer space stations with their bare tentacles, genetically re-engineering species, and possessed of stellar distance psychic powers

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You do realize that the Ancients basically did all of these things too, right?

It's not that difficult to see in the various series that they have these powers and capabilities, plus more.

 

[Vaermina]

You do realize that the Ancients basically did all of these things too, right?

It's not that difficult to see in the various series that they have these powers and capabilities, plus more.

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Using only direct canon the Ancients were shown to be capable of 4/7 of those, one of which was an experimental failure and not a mature technology.

If you include the Ascended, which are more then just the Ancients, that expands to 6/7.

 

[Jankl]

I just want to say that I find all of this arguing delightful. Keep going you two.

 

[BR549]

The thing to keep in mind is that the Vorlons are Not the good guys. They are just not the bad guys.….

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Ehh, I'd say that they still qualify as the bad guys.

The Shadows may have been more open and willing to engage in blatantly evil shit, but the Vorlons wouldn't hesitate that much.

I once read somewhere that when Ulkesh showed up, the Vorlons stopped being the good guys, but someone then wrote that they never were the good guys.

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The Vorlons start out as Good Is Not Nice, and evolve into Light Is Not Good.

(Note that the oft-made argument that "at least the Shadows are honest" fails on the grounds that (for instance) Morden was very much lying by omission when he never detailed how exactly people who answered his question would get what they wanted.)

But in the end the correct assessment is the one Sheridan and company came to: "a pox on both your houses".

 

[balor64]

"And you're not part of the telepath underground."

"That what?" I frown at her. "What's the telepath underground?"

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The

 

[Vaermina]

The Vorlons start out as Good Is Not Nice, and evolve into Light Is Not Good.

(Note that the oft-made argument that "at least the Shadows are honest" fails on the grounds that (for instance) Morden was very much lying by omission when he never detailed how exactly people who answered his question would get what they wanted.)

But in the end the correct assessment is the one Sheridan and company came to: "a pox on both your houses".

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I was always felt this little bit from Darkness and Light encompassed the general feeling of the two well.

What was the relation between the Vorlons, the Shadows and the other races?

Fraught. If i may use an analogy…

Please do.

The Vorlons are the priggish, anal-retentive, overly nervous ones who hide behind the letter of the rules and run to teacher whenever there's any trouble. The Shadows are the freaky hillbilly cousins who no one really likes and who have picked up some weird religious beliefs. Screw both of 'em.

Million-year old transcendent civilisations debating the fate of the galaxy use phrases like 'screw both of 'em'?

I said it was an analogy. According to the organic memory cells found on the Trieste Derelict in 10,033az, what they actually said was 'Zog both of 'em.'

I think the solar flares are affecting you again.

Less than four hours to go before Sol goes Zog.

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[Yog]

Because in the shows/movies alone Vorlons are shown to be capable of destroying planets, creating pockets of space time capable of containing entire solar systems, throwing around celestial bodies, manipulating time, tearing apart multi-kilometer space stations with their bare tentacles, genetically re-engineering species, and possessed of stellar distance psychic powers.

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I'd very much like citations for most or of those, please. I remember planetary destruction, and genetic manipulation of species, which isn't really that impressive at all, but nothing else. Time manipulation was done via the Epsilon Eriadni machine, and it's not shown to be of Vorlon make.

 

[Vaermina]

I'd very much like citations for most or of those, please. I remember planetary destruction, and genetic manipulation of species, which isn't really that impressive at all, but nothing else. Time manipulation was done via the Epsilon Eriadni machine, and it's not shown to be of Vorlon make.

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The Great Machine was in fact built at/with Vorlon instruction.

The solar systems sized pocket of space time was seen when they found the hidden Vorlon fleet. (I forget the exact episode.)

Throwing around celestial bodies is from "The Road Home" where the Vorlon's destroyed Earth by throwing it's moon at the planet after interdicting the entire world so the populace could watch their doom slowly approach.

Ulkesh nearly tore apart the station as a just a byproduct while fighting the Kosh fragment in Falling Towards Apotheosis.

And stellar range psychic abilities are from "Into the Fire" when the Vorlon's pluck John's mind out of the White Star for their final conversation.

 

[BR549]

Time manipulation was done via the Epsilon Eriadni machine, and it's not shown to be of Vorlon make.

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I would suspect the "time manipulation" thing being attributed to the Vorlons is a mis-interpretation of the "cycle" between the Vorlons and Shadows. There wasn't time travel involved in that. Just "okay, we fought, you lost and we won, now we spend the next thousand or so years regrouping for the next round".

EDIT: ..aaaaand I clicked 'show ignored' and aside from that being a mistake I see that in fact Vaermina is being Vaermina and arguing things that don't exist. The Great Machine that threw B4 back in time was not the work of the Vorlons, nor was it built under Vorlon instruction - that's fanon. The Great Machine's builders were never specified beyond being an ancient, highly advanced race.

(Also the hidden Vorlon fleet in 'The Summoning' was hidden in a hyperspace pocket, not folded real-space-time.)

 

[Vaermina]

I would suspect the "time manipulation" thing being attributed to the Vorlons is a mis-interpretation of the "cycle" between the Vorlons and Shadows. There wasn't time travel involved in that. Just "okay, we fought, you lost and we won, now we spend the next thousand or so years regrouping for the next round".

EDIT: ..aaaaand I clicked 'show ignored' and aside from that being a mistake I see that in fact Vaermina is being Vaermina and arguing things that don't exist. The Great Machine that threw B4 back in time was not the work of the Vorlons, nor was it built under Vorlon instruction - that's fanon. The Great Machine's builders were never specified beyond being an ancient, highly advanced race.

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Calling something "fanon" and going on about "Vaermina being Vaermina" isn't something one should do without first doing proper research beyond glancing at a woefully incomplete wikia.

Darkness and Light: The Vorlon and Shadow Fact Book - Page 17

The Rift
(Z-500)
The Vorlons may have known about the temporal rift in the
Episilon Eridani system for millennia, or only discovered it
after the war. However, it is certain that they began working
to utilise it three hundred years after the last war. The last of
the Ru Ha'rus were instructed to build a great machine on a
planet within range of the temporal rift. This vast machine
was composed of a series of power generators and time-field
effectors, which could reshape the geometry of the rift and
allow it to be used as a portal back and forward in time.

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[Mr Zoat]

The

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Mr Zoat]

12th January 2257
08:16 GMT

The stars still, and a dull planetoid appears in front of us. Scans show a small flotilla of brown-green tentacle ships in orbit, and another around… A space station? Further into the system. The buildings I can see are dome-shaped, with blue lines which are probably different floors around the circumference.

"Areyoucrazy!"

"I'm two hundred years out of time and have several hundred voices in my head."

"Oh God… Oh God…"

"Hey, their ships have noticed us!"

"Oh God. Can we-? Can we leave, please?"

I suppose that approaching a space station is a bit less threatening that approaching an inhabited planet. And I could just have approached an outpost near the edge of their territory. Alright, plot course and-.

A cream… Bubble, appears around us.

Hm.

"Oh God. I should just have gone to Earth."

I bring my left fist closer to my mouth. "Orange Lantern Two Eight One Four to whoever's doing this. I realise that coming this far inside your territory was probably a bit on the rude side…" The ships orbiting the planet come about and accelerate towards us with enough vigour that they must have some sort of inertia dampening system. "But my colleague here thinks she might have-."

"Keep me out of this!"

"Ah. Colleague? What colleague?"

I generate a large construct hand and extend it out towards-. Through the barrier? Not a barrier, then. Just a way of preventing spatial warping? Okay, plot course to-. Just behind that rather large ship that's moving rather fast, and transition.

Huh. Slightly surprised that-.

The ship twists and flips at once aiming its bow at us.

"Alright, so I'm pretty sure that we've got their attention, and they're not actually shooting yet."

"But can't you do that-! Warp-thing?!"

"I mean, y-." The cream bubble reappears. "I probably could have done, but since we're here I think we could at least try to have a conversation."

"I was thinking of just walking up to Kosh and asking for asylum-"

I nod. "That's a way better idea than what you actually did."

"-but I didn't-"

"Who are you?"

"-and-. Wait, who was that?"

"Oh, I was still broadcasting. I just didn't think anyone was listening." I move the ring back to my mouth. "I'm using the name 'Matthew Underwood', though while I'm working 'Orange Lantern' is probably more appropriate."

"Who are you?"

I point the ring at Lyta.

"Ah, Lyta Alexander. I'm a human telepath-. I helped out when your ambassador got poisoned!"

"Who are you?"

"Oh, is this a philosophical question for you? Ah… Can you give me some context?"

"NO."

"That's jolly unhelpful." The ship comes to relative stop, tentacle-arms enveloping us. They… Don't appear to be flexible, but it's a little off-putting. So I transition us so that we're standing on the hull on the 'upper' surface of the ship. "I suppose that 'I' am also the three hundred or so souls I picked-"

Any vorlons in here?

Don't be ridiculous.

"-up from the Soul Hunters."

"Who are you?"

Ring, can you give me a better translation?

Linguistic database incomplete. Automatic translation not reliable with transcendent species.

Best guess?

Question most likely refers to the most essential element of the character, rather than transitory labels or externally applied descriptions.

Alright. "Okay, final answer. There's no one in the galaxy that I really care about. There's nothing that feels like 'mine' or 'home'. I'm all that I have left, so I'm me, doing me, being me. I am the me-shaped thing in the universe, doing what I want, when I want it. Is that good enough?"

"You are-."

"And I don't care. You're not me, and I have no investment in you. Lyta, do you want to talk to them?"

"Yeah. I want to request political asylum, from Psi Corp…" … "And this guy."

"It's not really political asylum from me."

"It can't be regular asylum when I'm not the one who's crazy."

I don't know about that, she's looking a little-.

"Cease."

I turn to my left, and there's a cream-coloured glowing ball floating there.

Lyta's eyes are even wider, and she's sort of… Cringe-bowing? "I'm really sorry."

I frown. "Vorlons are.. balls?"

She glares at me. "It's an angel."

I blink in confusion. "It's a ba-. Wait." I look a little more closely, my eyes flaring. Ahh… Yes, there's a person.. there but not entirely there. I can't see the material part like this… Probably because they don't have them. But there's a little orange light, bound in rigid structures-.

"Who gave you that?"

And it sounds unhappy.

"According to them, they're the oldest species in the universe." I shrug. "But it's not as if I could check." The ball blinks. "There aren't that many of them and they find dealing with younger species a trial, so I got deputised. Are you going to take her or-?"

Something-. I can feel my thoughts jam, and my surroundings-.

Get out! / Out! / He's helping us, please-. / I'll kill you!

There's a weakening, and I direct the orange light to absorb anything that shouldn't be there.

The ball pulls back, and Lyta gasps. Ah, I guess they got her too.

"We will grant her sanctuary. Your presence is-" Lyta gets enveloped in cream light. "-no longer required, servant of the First Ones."

I nod, rising off the hull of the ship. "Alright. Be excellent to each other."

Lyta doesn't look entirely happy, but she isn't asking me to help her, so I guess she's made peace with this. I turn back towards Earth-.

That was well done. I have seen vorlons made uncomfortable only a few times. It is most satisfying.

And warp.

That's a new voice. I nod as the stars shoot past.

I'm glad you approve. Name, species and objective?

Kral'nag. Drakh. I would like to see them humbled more.

 

[Khettien]

That was...something. Not sure what. But it was definitely something.

 

[Oglymogly]

That was a impressive trophy for the soul hunter, getting hold of a Drakh. He's going to be even more pissed than I thought.

 

[BR549]

That was well done. I have seen vorlons made uncomfortable only a few times. It is most satisfying.

And warp.

That's a new voice. I nod as the starts shoot past.

I'm glad you approve. Name, species and objective?

Kral'nag. Drakh. I would like to see them humbled more.

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Oh boy.

For those new to the party: the Drakh are the main client race of the Shadows.
If the Shadows' whole thing is "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and if it does kill you, oh no! Anyways-"?
The Drakh are "we suffered and grew strong. Now all of you must suffer as we did".

Spoiler: And after the series proper...

...the Drakh took the fact their masters agreed to Lorien's suggestion of taking a little camping trip out beyond the Rim about as well as you'd expect.

If "as well as you'd expect" is "blamed Sheridan, sent a planet killer at Earth, and used it as cover to seed the planet with a long-acting plague".

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

12th January 2257
08:16 GMT

The stars still, and a dull planetoid appears in front of us. Scans show a small flotilla of brown-green tentacle ships in orbit, and another around… A space station? Further into the system. The buildings I can see are dome-shaped, with blue lines which are probably different floors around the circumference.

Click to shrink...

Moments before disaster. Hopefully the Vorlons react with horrified curiosity rather than blind violence, or this alternate will face a very short, very exciting visit.And possibly burn some valuable bridges in the process.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Areyoucrazy!"

"I'm two hundred years out of time and have several hundred voices in my head."

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Admittedly, he's not the weirdest or craziest alternate Paul.

"Oh God… Oh God…"

"Hey, their ships have noticed us!"

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No doubt with lots of the Vorlon equivalent of swearing from the crews aboard.

"Oh God. Can we-? Can we leave, please?"

I suppose that approaching a space station is a bit less threatening that approaching an inhabited planet. And I could just have approached an outpost near the edge of their territory. Alright, plot course and-.

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But nothing says 'notable' than popping seemingly out of nowhere light-years within their space.

A cream… Bubble, appears around us.

Hm.

"Oh God. I should just have gone to Earth."

Click to shrink...

Bit late for that now. The die is cast, and now we get to see if you rolled a 1 or a 20.

I bring my left fist closer to my mouth. "Orange Lantern Two Eight One Four to whoever's doing this. I realise that coming this far inside your territory was probably a bit on the rude side…" The ships orbiting the planet come about and accelerate towards us with enough vigour that they must have some sort of inertia dampening system. "But my colleague here thinks she might have-."

Click to shrink...

Inertial dampening or crews that don't suffer the harmful effects of high acceleration.

"Keep me out of this!"

"Ah. Colleague? What colleague?"

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'Companion' might be a suitable alternative. 'Captive' might be a bit too much...

I generate a large construct hand and extend it out towards-. Through the barrier? Not a barrier, then. Just a way of preventing spatial warping? Okay, plot course to-. Just behind that rather large ship that's moving rather fast, and transition.

Huh. Slightly surprised that-.

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And if they aren't paying attention, that is going to look a lot like other forms of near-teleportation they're familiar with...

The ship twists and flips at once aiming its bow at us.

"Alright, so I'm pretty sure that we've got their attention, and they're not actually shooting yet."

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Which is surprisingly patient of them. Probably unsure if he'd take damage.

"But can't you do that-! Warp-thing?!"

"I mean, y-." The cream bubble reappears. "I probably could have done, but since we're here I think we could at least try to have a conversation."

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...Probably getting off on the wrong foot for that, Speaker.

"I was thinking of just walking up to Kosh and asking for asylum-"

I nod. "That's a way better idea than what you actually did."

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Though it would have the drawback of leaving her exposed to conventional threats until Kosh could get her off the station.

"-but I didn't-"

"Who are you?"

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Well, looks like they're curious. Fortunate.

"-and-. Wait, who was that?"

"Oh, I was still broadcasting. I just didn't think anyone was listening." I move the ring back to my mouth. "I'm using the name 'Matthew Underwood', though while I'm working 'Orange Lantern' is probably more appropriate."

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Ah, good to see a full alias for him. I'll stick with my nickname, though...

"Who are you?"

I point the ring at Lyta.

"Ah, Lyta Alexander. I'm a human telepath-. I helped out when your ambassador got poisoned!"

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All right, that's introductions taken care of.

"Who are you?"

"Oh, is this a philosophical question for you? Ah… Can you give me some context?"

"NO."

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Bit more of a 'who are you working for?', maybe?

"That's jolly unhelpful." The ship comes to relative stop, tentacle-arms enveloping us. They… Don't appear to be flexible, but it's a little off-putting. So I transition us so that we're standing on the hull on the 'upper' surface of the ship. "I suppose that 'I' am also the three hundred or so souls I picked-"

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Good point to include the engrams, since they have some say in matters.

Any vorlons in here?

Don't be ridiculous.

"-up from the Soul Hunters."

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I suspect if the hunter depository had a Vorlon in it, it would have been attacked to recover it.

"Who are you?"

Ring, can you give me a better translation?

Linguistic database incomplete. Automatic translation not reliable with transcendent species.

Click to shrink...

Because they transmit meaning as much with telepathy and sheer aura as they do words, presumably.

Best guess?

Question most likely refers to the most essential element of the character, rather than transitory labels or externally applied descriptions.

Click to shrink...

Ah. So a bit more 'what are you in the dark?' Beyond what others see, what others know of him.

Alright. "Okay, final answer. There's no one in the galaxy that I really care about. There's nothing that feels like 'mine' or 'home'. I'm all that I have left, so I'm me, doing me, being me. I am the me-shaped thing in the universe, doing what I want, when I want it. Is that good enough?"

Click to shrink...

Let's hope it is.

"You are-."

"And I don't care. You're not me, and I have no investment in you. Lyta, do you want to talk to them?"

Click to shrink...

And I imagine the Vorlons felt a shudder run through them when he declared that.

"Yeah. I want to request political asylum, from Psi Corp…" … "And this guy."

"It's not really political asylum from me."

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'Protective custody', perhaps?

"It can't be regular asylum when I'm not the one who's crazy."

I don't know about that, she's looking a little-.

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...Panicked? To be fair, the day she's been having...

"Cease."

I turn to my left, and there's a cream-coloured glowing ball floating there.

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Oh, my. Without an encounter suit? This is unusual.

Lyta's eyes are even wider, and she's sort of… Cringe-bowing? "I'm really sorry."

I frown. "Vorlons are.. balls?"

She glares at me. "It's an angel."

Click to shrink...

I remember someone mentioning that. And since early-phase alternate Pauls tend to be atheists, of course he doesn't feel any religious awe.

I blink in confusion. "It's a ba-. Wait." I look a little more closely, my eyes flaring. Ahh… Yes, there's a person.. there but not entirely there. I can't see the material part like this… Probably because they don't have them. But there's a little orange light, bound in rigid structures-.

Click to shrink...

Admittedly, staring into the Vorlon's soul might be a little antagonistic of him.

"Who gave you that?"

And it sounds unhappy.

Click to shrink...

You just peered under the hood, I think they're a little entitled to feel testy.

"According to them, they're the oldest species in the universe." I shrug. "But it's not as if I could check." The ball blinks. "There aren't that many of them and they find dealing with younger species a trial, so I got deputised. Are you going to take her or-?"

Something-. I can feel my thoughts jam, and my surroundings-.

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Impressively ambiguous. Neither confirming nor denying any suppositions the Vorlons might presently have.

Get out! / Out! / He's helping us, please-. / I'll kill you!

There's a weakening, and I direct the orange light to absorb anything that shouldn't be there.

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A deep telepathic scan, I assume. Deep enough to feel the engrams directly. And Speaker Paul slapping it away with a bit of Feeding.

The ball pulls back, and Lyta gasps. Ah, I guess they got her too.

"We will grant her sanctuary. Your presence is-" Lyta gets enveloped in cream light. "-no longer required, servant of the First Ones."

Click to shrink...

At least she got what she wanted. And they're not going to try and kill him right now.

I nod, rising off the hull of the ship. "Alright. Be excellent to each other."

Lyta doesn't look entirely happy, but she isn't asking me to help her, so I guess she's made peace with this. I turn back towards Earth-.

Click to shrink...

And that choice of direction will send its own message to them, no doubt.

That was well done. I have seen vorlons made uncomfortable only a few times. It is most satisfying.

And warp.

Click to shrink...

Ah, looks like at least one passenger approved of the whole affair.

That's a new voice. I nod as the starts shoot past.

I'm glad you approve. Name, species and objective?

Kral'nag. Drakh. I would like to see them humbled more.

Click to shrink...

Ah, that is significant. ...I assume so, anyway, given BR549's comment.

I'm not sure if that went well or not, but at least they didn't shoot at him... This time, anyway. But he's taken his first move on the greater board of the galaxy, and there will be many eyes watching his next one, no doubt. Hopefully the saga doesn't end with him deciding to flip the board in disgust at the state of the game...

 

[BR549]

Ah. So a bit more 'what are you in the dark?' Beyond what others see, what others know of him.

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It's one of the Great Questions that the narrative arcs of B5 were built around.
Vorlons: "Who are you?"
Shadows: "What do you want?"
Technomages: "Where are you going?"
Lorien: "Do you have anything worth living for?"

There's a few other similar questions that are asked by the various younger races, but those are the big four.

Spoiler: Crusade

Galen the Technomage adds a Question of his own, posed to Captain Gideon:

"Who do you serve, and whom do you trust?"

Gideon's first, rather rote answer about serving Earth and trusting his crew only has Galen repeat the question in an Angry Wizard tone of voice; when Gideon stops, considers, and answers that he honestly isn't sure, that's the right answer and Galen agrees to join Excalibur's crew on the titular Crusade.

I remember someone mentioning that. And since early-phase alternate Pauls tend to be atheists, of course he doesn't feel any religious awe.

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Well, it's less 'he's an atheist' and more 'he's not from this universe, so he doesn't have the Vorlon genetic tampering that makes all the local Younger Races' members see Vorlons as angels'.

Spoiler: S2 finale

The reason Londo doesn't see Kosh as an angel is because he had already fully cast his lot in with the Shadows by that point...

Hopefully the saga doesn't end with him deciding to flip the board in disgust at the state of the game...

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To be entirely fair, that's basically what Sheridan ended up doing in canon!

 

[Jankl]

so he doesn't have the Vorlon genetic tampering that makes all the local Younger Races' members see Vorlons as angels'.

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What? The Vorlons actually did that? That sounds incredibly messed up. Are they that intent on guiding the younger species or whatever their goals are.

 

[BR549]

What? The Vorlons actually did that? That sounds incredibly messed up. Are they that intent on guiding the younger species or whatever their goals are.

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Why, yes! Yes they did!

And now you see one reason why the Vorlons are not the Big Good they present themselves as.

Spoiler: Get the hell out of our galaxy!

As I recall the Vorlons were more reluctant to leave than the Shadows were, because "the younger races reject us because they don't need us anymore" is arguably a win state for the Shadows and a loss for the Vorlons. But even the Vorlons weren't going to press an argument with Dad.

 

[Yog]

The Great Machine was in fact built at/with Vorlon instruction.

The solar systems sized pocket of space time was seen when they found the hidden Vorlon fleet. (I forget the exact episode.)

Throwing around celestial bodies is from "The Road Home" where the Vorlon's destroyed Earth by throwing it's moon at the planet after interdicting the entire world so the populace could watch their doom slowly approach.

Ulkesh nearly tore apart the station as a just a byproduct while fighting the Kosh fragment in Falling Towards Apotheosis.

And stellar range psychic abilities are from "Into the Fire" when the Vorlon's pluck John's mind out of the White Star for their final conversation.

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Citation about the Great Machine please. Because as far as I know, it wasn't. The vorlon fleet was, indeed, in hyperspace. I wasn't aware of the "The Road Home" existing, I'll check it out, thanks. You are misremembering "Falling Towards Apotheosis" - it was Ulkesh's ship, not ulkesh himself who was tearing the station apart. And stellar ranges is a great exaggeration - as shown, the combat in "Into the Fire" is being done at a knife range, cosmically speaking.

 

[Vaermina]

12th January 2257
08:16 GMT

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Wow, you didn't even try to make the author handwave believable.

Thats kind of impressive.

Ah. So a bit more 'what are you in the dark?' Beyond what others see, what others know of him.

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No, its more "who are you when everything is stripped away".

The question itself traces back to the Thirdspace War when the Vorlons discovered that the only way to keep the Invaders out of their minds was to know themselves so thoroughly that the Invaders couldn't find any purchase.

What? The Vorlons actually did that? That sounds incredibly messed up. Are they that intent on guiding the younger species or whatever their goals are.

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Contrary to what Paul thought earlier, the Vorlons also engineered telepathy into the younger races so they could be used as weapons against the Shadows.

The Vorlons are not nice, or reasonable, and at this point do not see the younger races as anything but pieces to be to be used to show that they are right and the Shadows are wrong.

 

[BR549]

Citation about the Great Machine please.

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As I mentioned, Vorlon involvment in the construction of the Great Machine is fanon.

I wasn't aware of the "The Road Home" existing, I'll check it out, thanks.

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The Road Home is the recent animated movie that functionally ends B5's original story and established a new timeline (so far, sans the Shadow War) for the reboot JMS was working on to take place in.
(The reboot that now, again, appears to be in development hell...)

 

[BoML]

Well, at least they didn't shoot at him on sight. This is already going way better.

The stars still, and a dull planetoid appears in front of us. Scans show a small flotilla of brown-green tentacle ships in orbit, and another around… A space station? Further into the system. The buildings I can see are dome-shaped, with blue lines which are probably different floors around the circumference.

"Areyoucrazy!"

"I'm two hundred years out of time and have several hundred voices in my head."

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Debatable. To me, he's reasonably sane, but that's heavily influenced by the fact that he has a freaking *POWER RING* to do whatever he wants with.

I suppose that approaching a space station is a bit less threatening that approaching an inhabited planet. And I could just have approached an outpost near the edge of their territory. Alright, plot course and-.

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Again, debatable. Vorlon standing policy is that they ignore your attempts of communication, and if you ignore their ONE warning to not cross their borders, they're going to destroy your ship...with you and whatever poor bastards with you.

A cream… Bubble, appears around us.

Hm.

"Oh God. I should just have gone to Earth."

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*sigh* I'm gonna be real with you, Lyta. No. No, you should not.

Huh. Slightly surprised that-.

The ship twists and flips at once aiming its bow at us.

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I'm betting it's not every day someone just *ignores* whatever the Vorlons did to prevent Babylon!Paul from moving. Bet they didn't appreciate it.

I nod. "That's a way better idea than what you actually did."

"-but I didn't-"

"Who are you?"

"-and-. Wait, who was that?"

"Oh, I was still broadcasting. I just didn't think anyone was listening." I move the ring back to my mouth. "I'm using the name 'Matthew Underwood', though while I'm working 'Orange Lantern' is probably more appropriate."

"Who are you?"

I point the ring at Lyta.

"Ah, Lyta Alexander. I'm a human telepath-. I helped out when your ambassador got poisoned!"

"Who are you?"

"Oh, is this a philosophical question for you? Ah… Can you give me some context?"

"NO."

"That's jolly unhelpful." The ship comes to relative stop, tentacle-arms enveloping us. They… Don't appear to be flexible, but it's a little off-putting. So I transition us so that we're standing on the hull on the 'upper' surface of the ship. "I suppose that 'I' am also the three hundred or so souls I picked-"

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...yeah, I agree with Babylon!Paul. Par for the course for Vorlons.

Alright. "Okay, final answer. There's no one in the galaxy that I really care about. There's nothing that feels like 'mine' or 'home'. I'm all that I have left, so I'm me, doing me, being me. I am the me-shaped thing in the universe, doing what I want, when I want it. Is that good enough?"

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...Well, at least they didn't shoot him immediately.

I frown. "Vorlons are.. balls?"

She glares at me. "It's an angel."

I blink in confusion. "It's a ba-. Wait." I look a little more closely, my eyes flaring. Ahh… Yes, there's a person.. there but not entirely there. I can't see the material part like this… Probably because they don't have them. But there's a little orange light, bound in rigid structures-.

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Again, as was mentioned, Vorlons made it a point to present themselves as the "good guys". To reinforce that, they did some...genetic adjustments to younger species to be seen as angelic beings. Says a lot about them that they needed the help...

Lyta doesn't look entirely happy, but she isn't asking me to help her, so I guess she's made peace with this. I turn back towards Earth-.

That was well done. I have seen vorlons made uncomfortable only a few times. It is most satisfying.

And warp.

That's a new voice. I nod as the starts shoot past.

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Huh, now who is this...

I'm glad you approve. Name, species and objective?

Kral'nag. Drakh. I would like to see them humbled more.

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...no. F NO! Just crush his soul orb whatever, and be done with it. You'll be way better off.

Or assimilate his ass, at least then he'll be actually useful for something.

 

[Yog]

So, anyway, there are two main parts of this chapter: Maltusians being misinterpreted for Lorien's species by Vorlons, and Paul doing Ophidian's eyes at a vorlon. The first one (hah!) gives him a very good political cover, but leads to some awkward conversations and assumptions later; the second one, I am sure, won't result in Ophidian eating someone at some point.

 

[Vaermina]

Citation about the Great Machine please. Because as far as I know, it wasn't. The vorlon fleet was, indeed, in hyperspace. I wasn't aware of the "The Road Home" existing, I'll check it out, thanks. You are misremembering "Falling Towards Apotheosis" - it was Ulkesh's ship, not ulkesh himself who was tearing the station apart. And stellar ranges is a great exaggeration - as shown, the combat in "Into the Fire" is being done at a knife range, cosmically speaking.

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I gave one a bit farther up on this page.

The road home actually expands on both the Shadows and Vorlons in fun ways. For instance it shows the Shadows creating energy constructs during their ground invasion of Babylon 5.

And I said stellar ranges, not Interstellar.

As I mentioned, Vorlon involvment in the construction of the Great Machine is fanon.

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And this is why its dangerous to ignore people, you can be proven wrong and continue on as if you were right with everyone else seeing otherwise.

...no. F NO! Just crush his soul orb whatever, and be done with it. You'll be way better off.

Or assimilate his ass, at least then he'll be actually useful for something.

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Paul just had the idea that he is untouchable vindicated by the fact the Vorlons let him go. Of course he's going to listen to the Drakh.

 

[Yog]

I gave one a bit farther up on this page.

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Your citation is invalid, because we are specifically discussing TV show and movie canon, not expanded universe.

And I said stellar ranges, not Interstellar.

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This might be an issue of definitions, because the distances depicted were nowhere close to what I would call as "stellar" (the smallest such distance for me would be the distance between the Earth and the Moon).