With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Neruz]

He has scans of at least 4 telepaths (Lita, two psi cops, Ironheart), and quite likely many more (he likely scanned everyone who was in the building he was interrogated at), as well as however many minbari telepaths he scanned. The ring is clearly capable of independent genetic analysis - it was able to isolate the minbari beard genes and compare them to human genetics. So "ring, locate human telepathy genome sequence" should be possible, based strictly on what he already did in this continuity. As well as "ring, compare human telepathic gene to minbari telepathic gene" and "ring, adapt isolated sequence to narn biology" for thr bonus and G'kar's eternal gratitude.

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Every single human brain is unique, there are commonalities, but exactly how every brain develops is different for every individual. (This is also true for the rest of the body, ask any surgeon and they'll tell you no two bodies are the same and nobody actually looks like the anatomy diagrams.)

Figuring out how to alter a fully formed brain into one with the structures for psychic powers is certainly possible, but it would take substantially more data than just a few brain scans.

e:

And they didn't know what caused Ironheart to ascend like that. (There's very good reason other species who have had telepaths longer then humans dont artificially increase telepathic power like the Psi-Corp was trying to do.)

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IIRC it's actually implied that Ironheart's ascension was a forced version of the intended fifth stage of the Vorlons psychic experiments. Human telepaths are third stage by default, and the Vorlon upgraded Lyta was fourth stage, but there are supposed to be five stages. And while we never get any explicit statements regarding the fifth stage, given the Vorlons goal of creating beings that could fight the Shadows it seems likely that the fifth stage is probably something similar to what happened to Ironheart.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Shouldn't the ring be capable of restructuring the brain? Like it did in the main timeline with the venombuster and agent orange victims. There's not much difference between that and adding the telepathic structures, as I understand it.

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I mean... Yes, a power ring can add or remove biological structures, no problem there. The problem is know what to add and how to add it without causing a stroke or some sort of other brain dysfunction. You can't really test something like that on laboratory mice.

 

[BoML]

Well, that throws my timeline completely out of whack.

Still, if he goes through with this, and the Psi Corps ever finds out, he's an enemy they have to address in the future. I do have to wonder just how deep Psi Corps has embedded themselves in Earth Alliance decision making process, and what the likes of "Bureau 13" feel about it.

Well, after he's done with Mayan, he'll be able to chill out in this new destination. He'll probably have to go through Babylon 5...

Hmmm...I'm wondering how long it took until Ironheart started loosing control of his powers. He's stable now...but how long will he stay that way?

 

[PeriodicPedant]

Where did I feel like doing? The lobby.

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going


*rubs hands together gleefully*
Not sure why I'm enjoying the B5 branch as much as I am -I was never big into B5-, but eeeee this is fun.

 

[Mr Zoat]

going

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Thank you, corrected.

Hmmm...I'm wondering how long it took until Ironheart started loosing control of his powers. He's stable now...but how long will he stay that way?

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Thing is... Ironheart is a good deal more moral a person than, say, Bester, but he still volunteered for the enhancement program and his outlook is still significantly formed by Psi Corps doctrine. If the SI saw him crackling with energy and preparing to explode, he'd try and stop that as fast as he could.

 

[Galler]

Out of the office, internal cameras there and there, office half-full, step around the corner to break line-of-sight and move to the bottom of the stairwell, then step out and walk towards the man sitting in the waiting area behind the… Copy of Universe Today.

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It has been a while since I did a reread but isn't "stepping out" used when OL travels via the Honden of Avarice? In which case this should likely be "transition" since he is noe enlightened.

 

[Neruz]

The two things that caused Ironheart to break was the realization that Psi Corps were acting outside of their remit to control the government, and that they wanted undetectable assassins who could kill without a trace.

So he concluded that undetectable assassins that could kill without a trace was a power far, far too dangerous to be entrusted to anyone, much less a government organization that had demonstrably gone rogue, and thus needed to make sure that the program that created him was destroyed so that it couldn't be reproduced as well as disappear himself.

Which is certainly ethical, but sadly also the kind of thing that doesn't really work; research can always be recreated, the hardest part is figuring out that something is possible in the first place. Once it is known that you can create super-psychics its only a matter of time before it is reproduced.

 

[Mr Zoat]

It has been a while since I did a reread but isn't "stepping out" used when OL travels via the Honden of Avarice? In which case this should likely be "transition" since he is noe enlightened.

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The main SI uses the term to refer to that, yes, but with this version he just means, you know, walking purposefully into a new area.

 

[Darko]

"Mm. I would of course need to apply for a visa for you. Please make sure that you have all pertinent documentation with you, particularly if any of it relates to criminal activity. They'll likely want you to declare it in advance

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Ooh, boy.

If the Vorlons were pissed at a crude form of immortality being developed, then this will really set them off.

I shrug, and say the line. "I guess I just like helping people

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Yeah, if Garibaldi thought you were a brainwashed criminal, then Ironheart will too.

The guy probably taught the techniques used in the process.

...and this is absolutely going to bring down Bester on everyone's heads

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I think Bester is going to be too busy learning the pecking order from Kosh.

In canon Ironheart ascended with zero vorlon interruption or retribution.

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I'm honestly wondering if Kosh knew what was happening and didn't interfere either because he wanted to see what would happen, or because Ironheart could potentially hurt him.

The Shadows response to that would be to have The Eye kill Matthew as the act of re-engineering the Narn to have telepaths would be taking a definitive stance against the Shadows.

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I don't think the Shadows would care about that.

They don't have a problem with species that have telepaths, and Narn-style teleoathy isn't inherently more powerful than any other version.

And why would the Shadows be upset that someone is taking a stance against them?

Their whole thing is that they take a long nap and then commit a bunch of pointless genocides until everyone starts fighting them.

Matthew going against is just business as usual.

 

[ziggrrauglurr]

I mean... Yes, a power ring can add or remove biological structures, no problem there. The problem is know what to add and how to add it without causing a stroke or some sort of other brain dysfunction. You can't really test something like that on laboratory mice.

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You risk ending with comic level rat villains with super-intelligence and telepathy....

Kinda like what Paul ended with when first testing the Flash formula in some rodents...

 

[Vaermina]

IIRC it's actually implied that Ironheart's ascension was a forced version of the intended fifth stage of the Vorlons psychic experiments. Human telepaths are third stage by default, and the Vorlon upgraded Lyta was fourth stage, but there are supposed to be five stages. And while we never get any explicit statements regarding the fifth stage, given the Vorlons goal of creating beings that could fight the Shadows it seems likely that the fifth stage is probably something similar to what happened to Ironheart.

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Not in the show it's not.

And if you go into the wider EU you get this, specifically from the Psi Corp module of the RPG. (Though of course Zoat's not using that.)

The Minbari have had telepaths for thousands of years; the
Centauri, for hundreds. While the Minbari might balk at
using technological means to augment their telepaths, the
Centauri have no such qualms. There are dozens of other
races who have both telepaths and the technology to improve
them. The Psi Corps has certainly shown, in developments
like the process that created Jason Ironheart, that telepathy
can be changed using technology. Why have none of the
other races discovered and perfected this process, if they
have had humanity's level of telepathy and technology for
centuries longer?

The simple answer is that the Vorlons do not permit their
handiwork to be improved on. A P12 to P15 is the ideal level
for fighting a Shadow vessel or uncovering a Shadow agent.
Anything more than that is unnecessary and disruptive and
risks working against the Vorlons' plans. Therefore, they
leave monitors with each race when they seed them with
telepaths. These monitors are to watch the telepaths created
by the Vorlons and to ensure that they do not become too
powerful.

Ironheart, for example, is a random factor in the grand
design of the Vorlons. He should not have been allowed
to come to pass. If the monitor of Earth had been able to
do her job properly, then the Psi Corps would have been
dissuaded from following that line of research, or at the very
least a Vorlon warship should have jumped out of hyperspace
above Mars, blasted the research station into atoms and then
vanished again as silently as it came.

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I don't think the Shadows would care about that.

They don't have a problem with species that have telepaths, and Narn-style teleoathy isn't inherently more powerful than any other version.

And why would the Shadows be upset that someone is taking a stance against them?

Their whole thing is that they take a long nap and then commit a bunch of pointless genocides until everyone starts fighting them.

Matthew going against is just business as usual.

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It's the act that matters not the result.

And the act is providing Vorlon weapons to the Younger Races as a "representative" of another First One race.

That's picking a side, and while that normally wouldn't be enough for the Shadows to go full murder, he declared himself a representative of a race of first one's. Which means he doesn't have the "younger race" protections that would stop the Shadows from using their real resources to kill him.

 

[boo600]

Yeah. He could probably scan every brain on earth at once, but that doesn't get him experimental data or teach him how to be a brain surgeon (where it's necessary to know more than to say 'ring do the thing'). Worse, he lacks the GLC basic package, meaning his ring lacks even general data on biological species; the basic Hinon-Ring fork is blank, bar programming.

 

[Yog]

Not sure why I'm enjoying the B5 branch as much as I am -I was never big into B5-, but eeeee this is fun.

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For me this is at least partly because unlike most other settings we have seen, B5 is a tighly wound story, not a sandbox setting. Orange Lantern by its mere presence distorts the story, with changes that are fun to behold.

The Vorlons have many ways to close the timeloop.

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Which are? TV canon only.

I'm honestly wondering if Kosh knew what was happening and didn't interfere either because he wanted to see what would happen, or because Ironheart could potentially hurt him.

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He probably could hurt Kosh, yes. At the very least he demonstrated comparable feats, if I recall correctly.

And if you go into the wider EU you get this, specifically from the Psi Corp module of the RPG. (Though of course Zoat's not using that.)

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So, the monitor of Earth isn't working properly even in the expanded universe? Is it stated why?

 

[Darko]

So, the monitor of Earth isn't working properly even in the expanded universe? Is it stated why

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The one in charge of that devoted their existence to tentacle porn.

Now that was a joke, but according to the expanded universe, a small group of Vorlons have devoted their existence to experiencing pleasure with Younger Races.

 

[BR549]

I think Bester is going to be too busy learning the pecking order from Kosh.

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stv73G7W-I4

I'm honestly wondering if Kosh knew what was happening and didn't interfere either because he wanted to see what would happen,

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Kosh: There was a point where they needed to stop and we have clearly passed it, so let's keep going and see what happens.

...also as noted before it may have functionally been the next step on the "Operation Develop Anti-Shadow Super Soldiers" plan, so if it worked, yay.

 

[Vaermina]

Which are? TV canon only.

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Create a clone and send it instead, send someone other then Sinclair to be Valen, grab a Sinclair from an alternate dimension.

And of course they don't even technically need to close the timeloop as we know the last Shadow War would have been won without Babylon 4 and Valen, it just would have meant that the Shadows were in a stronger position come the current war.

So, the monitor of Earth isn't working properly even in the expanded universe? Is it stated why?

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The next couple paragraphs of that explain it, I left them out for brevity's sake, but since you asked here they are.

The monitor of Earth is a woman named Montessa King.
She looks like she is around 25 and she has looked like that
since the mid-1980s. She was abducted by the Vorlons as
part of the last stage of their preparations to seed humanity
with telepaths; they took her to the Vorlon homeworld and
subjected her to the same alterations and improvements
as Sebastian.

They returned with her a century later
(once they were sure that everyone who might recognise
her was dead). Her role is to watch humanity's telepaths.
In the 2060s, she pretended to be a student out travelling
the world. In the 2080s, she was an Enlightened One in a
telepath cult in America. She was a lab tech in 2100; on
Senator Crawford's staff in the 2120s; a political lobbyist in
the 2140s and a founding member of Psi Corps in 2161.

It all went wrong when the Minbari War began. King knew
the Minbari were a race chosen and guided by the Vorlons;
that they should turn on humanity with genocidal intent
terrified her. Her attempts to communicate with her Vorlon
masters met with no response. In the end, her conscience
forced to act in defiance of their commands. She abandoned
her current identity (that of a mid-level instructor in the Psi
Corps), commandeered a vessel and set course for Vorlon
space. While she was enroute, the Minbari reached Earth,
fought the Battle of the Line – and surrendered. King
received news of this bizarre turnaround when she was on
the borders of Vorlon space. Assuming that the Vorlons had
finally acted, she turned around and headed back towards
Earth.

During her voyage home, she ran afoul of a Psi Corps sweep.
She had destroyed her old identity, so when her telepathic
abilities were picked up by a random DNA check at Proxima,
she was treated as a blip and sent to a re-education camp.
Fighting this would have just damaged her cover even more;
she submitted and went to the camp. She used her Vorlon
training to create a second personality and pushed that to
the forefront. This personality was broken, brainwashed
and rebuilt by the Corps, while the part of her that was
touched by the Vorlons survived hidden deep within her
mind.

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[Rafin]

"So I've been wondering: are you and Euanthe romantically involved?"



Her hands are withdrawn.



"Uh-aah, what?"



"Because it would be something to look forward to? Because that would mean that you're a prospective violet power ring user? Because it would be a sign of your psychological normalisation?"



"I don't think-. I haven't really… Thought about her that way. I don't think she thinks about humans that way."



"She's open to the idea."



She looks at me askance. "Should you be using your power like that? Isn't that unethical?"



"I didn't use my power. She came onto me. In a way that suggested that she didn't exactly get human interactions but thought it might be something I'd enjoy."



"And… Did..?"



"No. But you've spent a lot more time with her than I have, and you're more on her wavelength."



The last of the fungoids tramp through the pale grey hole in space.



"If you think she needs advice on the meatspace aspect, I'm happy to wingman for you."



"So.. I'll have something to not go crazy for."

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Paul and Pamela Isley already had this conversation except in exactly the opposite direction. As in, Pamela asked Paul if he was interested that way in Euanthe, but Paul told her he has a girlfriend, which Pamela didn't know about. In that conversation Pamela made it clear that Euanthe had developed a more concrete interest since the human form she has ties her to human desires to some degree. Paul asked if she was interested herself, but if I recall correctly she demurred out of various reasons.



This was back when Paul visited after Haephestean's rise and found Euanthe focused on the piece of Eden tree.



Specifically the continuity error is Isley not knowing anything about Euanthe's romantic/sexual interests this time around and acting like this line of thought has never come up before.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Okay... I'm going to need links to each part of the possible continuity error.

 

[RoninSword]

Okay... I'm going to need links to each part of the possible continuity error.

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This took way to long to do on mobile.

"I think it would be better if I invited someone from there, here. I don't think having the person whose job it is to explain humans to Euanthe should wander too far away."



We turn away from the purified pool, plant roots already poking through the earth around us to drink from it. I put an environmental shield around both of us and up we go.



"You could do that."



"I've got a lot on." She smirks. "What?"



"I have been teaching Euanthe how to be more human. Did you know that she can shift herself into a more humanlike shape?"



We land back on the surface, and I withdraw my environmental shield. It's only a short walk back to the temple-palace, and with that problem dealt with I hope that Euanthe will be in a convivial mood.



"She's fairly human-looking now."



She rolls her eyes. "Do you need me to spell it out?"



"Yes. And if people did that more often they'd find their interactions with me much more productive."



"She told me that she wanted your 'meat'."



"She told me that she thought that was a way of thanking me for rescuing her."



"Plants don't have sex. Plant reproductive systems-."



"Dad was a biology teacher. I know how plant reproduction works."



"She looks like she does because she's -spiritually- humanlike. The reason she could even think about 'meating' you is because when she's more human she has human desires."



I frown. "I-."



"She's into you. I'm trying to set you up with her, is what I'm saying."

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So this was the first conversation, with Pamela trying to set up Paul with Euanthe. I vaguely remember Euanthe approaching Paul in a proper humanoid form and giving him a kiss but I could be imagining that?

"So I've been wondering: are you and Euanthe romantically involved?"



Her hands are withdrawn.



"Uh-aah, what?"



"Because it would be something to look forward to? Because that would mean that you're a prospective violet power ring user? Because it would be a sign of your psychological normalisation?"



"I don't think-. I haven't really… Thought about her that way. I don't think she thinks about humans that way."



"She's open to the idea."



She looks at me askance. "Should you be using your power like that? Isn't that unethical?"



"I didn't use my power. She came onto me. In a way that suggested that she didn't exactly get human interactions but thought it might be something I'd enjoy."



"And… Did..?"



"No. But you've spent a lot more time with her than I have, and you're more on her wavelength."



The last of the fungoids tramp through the pale grey hole in space.



"If you think she needs advice on the meatspace aspect, I'm happy to wingman for you."



"So.. I'll have something to not go crazy for."



"Yes indeed. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to pacify the fungoids and you-."



"I need to rebuild the Green with Euanthe. I.. guess that works for a date?"



"Given how long you've been living together, I'd say that you should be a bit direct about things. If that's what you want. Excuse me."

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First bolded is her being confused when she already explained to Paul that Euanthe had more humanlike desires, despite the first conversation.
Second bolded is Pamela kinda sorta saying their world saving measures could be counted as a date if you squint.
OOC you just forgot because of the time between writing.


In other news, I'm still sad that

They're sitting in the lotus position facing one another, Euanthe's bonsai plant floating in the air between them. "What are they doing?"



"Checking what will happen if Euanthe succeeds. Zatara offered to help her with it if she helped him first."

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didn't go anywhere (the Eden plant turning all Earth plant life anti demon).

 

[Mr Zoat]

16th October 2013
13:44 G.M.T.

Huh, this is actually fun.

I don't get to cook like this much. Kryptonians can eat everything humans can, as well as a few things we can't. Thanagarians prefer organ meat to vegetables, but they can handle most Earth food plants. Clickers, shoon and momorans on the other hand have a far smaller overlap. Shoon effectively have a shellfish allergy but need a mineral content that would be dangerous for humans. Momorans can't really chew, and prefer to gulp down food in large chunks. And they can actually be ill if they try to eat something with too much moisture in it. Clickers get ill if they try to eat something with too high an energy density.

So I could just make four different meals, but as a social human I'd prefer for us to share at least some parts of the meal.

So… Bread. As long as there's no added sugar in it, that should be alright for all of us. We can all handle butter and garlic, so garlic bread. Calpri will need a dipping bowl of mineral powder, but that's fine, he's going to be used to that. Rotisserie chicken with sauce as an optional aside, and Calpri and Lasksh can both eat the bones no trouble. The Sivana kitchen can handle roasting whole root vegetables, so that works for all of us. I can toast a nut medley-.

A sivanadroid to my right activates. "Message. Guests have returned. End message."

And then it shuts down. Okay… Nothing's really ready yet, and the oven has a shut down timer, so that's fine. Jade's perfectly capable of abbreviating a report.

I enter the cooking program for the chickens, and then turn away from the kitchen and head back towards the part of the facility the Darkstars have made their own. Click Click-Click will of course tell them that I'm here, but given that they're not shouting for me I'm going to assume that no one needs urgent medical attention. I don't know where they're-.

A door slides open.

"…out of there, but-." Thaddeus Junior blinks as he sees me. "Oh, hey Paul. You want in on the research?"

"No, I'm happy to leave that to yourself-" He smiles brightly. "-and your sister-" He rolls his eyes. "-but I would like to know-."

An OMAC lumbers into view just behind him. He balls his fists when he sees me and then opens them with a sneers, his right hand moving up to brush the remains of his severely trimmed Mohican.

"Hello."

"Fuck you."

"Hello, Fuck You. I'm Orange Lantern. And-."

"Name's Faceoff."

Faceoff. Minor British vigilante and serial killer. His facial structure is currently OMAC-standard and I never bothered to scan his genes.

"I'm a little surprised that you volunteered for OMAC-hood. Or were you conscripted?"

"Like you don't know."

"Why would I bother lying? As a Justice League associate I can call upon an entire species of telepaths to drawl your brain if I need to, or just fill you with an overwhelming desire to talk to me."

He glares at me. "Try it."

"Eh." Thaddeus shakes his head. "Even with your OMAC enhancements working, you aren't really much of a threat to Orange Lantern. Not without Brother Eye, and we had to cut that."

"You couldn't get around Batman's data security?"

"Yeah I could! Just not while running everything else at the same time!"

"Then maybe Georgia-?"

"Hey!" FaceMAC tries to grab me, but his hands are stopped by my kinetic barrier. "Don't you dare ignore me!"

"Ah, talking now, are we? So I suspect, you in fact did not volunteer for OMAC-hood."

"Fucking right I didn't volunteer. I got dumped in that place without trial, and someone's gunna pay for it."

"Rightoh. What were you not tried for?"

"Murder."

"Going back to the telepaths-."

"That fuckweasel had it coming."

"You're not making me sympathetic, h-."

"He supplied homeless people for the Caligula Club."

"I'm sorry, but that name doesn't-."

"Your angel friends burned it to the ground."

"They aren't my friends. Though I will make a note to ask Zauriel if he knows why it was chosen."

"Might have been the rape. Might have been the murder. Might have been the cannibalism."

"Ah. Was it possible to hand the individual in question over to the police?"

"The plod aren't the problem. Not the main problem. It's their bosses. If I actually get someone important then they'd mysteriously vanish."

"Really?" Thaddeus sounds more interested than appalled. "Hey, Paul, does Dad's deal cover murdering other villains?"

"Your father's deal is not invalidated by any of you using lethal force to protect someone. However, I would strongly encourage you to-."

"Yeah yeah." He flaps his right hand. "Leave it to the actual heroes."

"I was going to say 'use low lethality force', because I appreciate that you don't have the best moral judgement and I can't give you a checklist for every situation you might encounter. I would personally prefer it if you kept helping NEMO fight the Reach because it doesn't require complex judgement on your part, but if you want to vary things a little, I would urge you to bear in mind your ethical limitations."

Faceoff frowns. "'Ethical limit-'. What are you talking about?"

"This is.. Doctor Thaddeus Sivana Junior. He's an evil scientist."

He grins. "The second most evil scientist on Earth! Well, not at the moment, obviously. But when Father and I and all of the rest are on Earth, I'm number two!"

"No one as insular as you can possible claim-" Georgia scurried closer. "-that title! A true scientist doesn't limit the horizons of their discoveries!"

"They do if they want to get anything done. I thought you were still working on the neural remapping, anyway."

"I was, and then I realised why your method wasn't working."

"Girls, you're both very clever. But I'd like a full explanation as to what's been going on."

Georgia smiles. "It's not working because their neurology has been far more modified than we initially assumed."

Thaddeus frowns. "What do you mean? You can't modify the human brainohhhhhhh."

"Oh?"

The both look up at me. "He's using aliens." / "He's using aliens."