With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · 2026-09-20T09:30:20+0100

Mr Zoat said:
6th October 2013
14:03 GMT -5

Alan smiles at Noriel as the last of the group arrive at the Washington Monument. "Okay, that's about everyone. Zatanna?"

Ah, a field trip for the new team. Understandable enough given the hullabaloo Hunter caused previously, with his ill-advised magic-use. Definitely a chance to give everyone the same level of experience in weird places.

Zatanna takes a couple of steps out in front of the huddle, and I take a moment to observe the crowd around us. Tourism is, naturally enough, way down from its pre-Anti-Life peak, so these are probably locals. And they're keeping well back from what looks like a superhero pre-battle muster but is actually a field trip.

Superhero spotters already flocking in, no doubt. The kind of folks foolish enough to stick around but wise enough to stay back.

"Okay. After what happened last week with Hunter, I thought it would be a good idea if everyone got exposed to magical planes of reality."

Cody smiles nervously. "What, like..? In the Wizard of Oz?"

Oz is a bit of a crazy place when you look beyond the movies. It probably exists somewhere in the Dreaming...

"Ah, kind-" Zatanna nods. "-of, yeah."

"Huh. Uh, okay." He looks at Henry, who gives him a reassuring nod. "So where are we going?"

That's Risk and Hawk, for those who are having trouble keeping up. Peril of introducing a rough dozen new and returning characters.

"It's called 'The Heartlands'. It's a reflection of the Americas."

"To be specific, the United States."

An idealised realisation of the dream of America as it ought to be, some might say. And somewhat beset by the realities.

Don smiles at me. "Are you allowed in?"

"President Kennedy vouched for me."

Hiro raises his right hand awkwardly. "Would he..? Vouch for me also?"

Hey, Japanese-American regiments did take part in World War II.

Zatanna nods. "People who aren't Americans might experience a little more hostility than people who are, but it's still a fairly safe place to go. That's why we're using it for this class. So long as you don't go out of your way to antagonise anyone you meet, you should be fine. Hunter?"

Mostly safe, yes. Hopefully they have enough magical oomph to protect the younger recruits.

He gives her his full attention.

"Paul?"

Sure, target the two English guys...

"What?"

"No singing Yankee Doodle."

I don't know, depending on the version, they might appreciate it.

"I wasn't going to, but suddenly I want to."

Edward looks confused. "I thought that was a Civil War song."

Remember that one painting with the marching soldiers? They are said to be playing a version of it. And in U.S. there's a panel featuring Sam as the white-haired gent. (Singing "And with the girls be handy!", no less.) And that's Kid Devil speaking there.

"The full lyrics contain the word 'trousers'."

"Oh." He frowns, because there's probably a bootleg American version that he's remembering.

Because the revolutionaries took the song and turned it back on them.

Donald takes pity on him. "It was originally written to mock the colonial militia, but when we started winning the War of Independence, our soldiers started singing it at the British. You know, 'sure, we're a bunch of amateurs with no uniforms or training, but we still beat you'."

Dove, speaking up. And neatly summing up the turnaround.

Edward smile. "Oh! Thanks Dove!"

"Or I could just set fire to the White House."

You wouldn't be the first, OL.

Alan raises his hands. "Okay, settle down. Everyone ready?"

I nod instinctively, and a few of the others follow suit.

Has everyone gotten their paperwork done? Don't forget your stuff. Hope everyone went before they left.

"Zatanna?"

"Yas, nac uoy ees,
Yb eht s'nwad ylrae thgil,
Tahw os ylduorp ew deliah,"

Fitting that the spell would involve the Star Spangled Banner.

The air in front of the Monument grows increasingly wobbly.

"Ta eht s'thgiliwt tsal gnimaelg?"

Another call-back to the War of 1812. Specifically, the Battle of Baltimore and its sack of Fort McHenry..

It was a fluke, the cannons could easily have hit the damn flag, or if they'd used chain-shot-.

The portal shimmers and stabilises and I decide to lead the way, marching forwards towards the Monument.

Now, now, OL. Let's not ruin the trip by being salty on behalf of your ancestors...

"If anyone sees a vulture, let me know."

And… Through..? The sky is overcast, the buildings somewhat grey and discoloured… But there's no giant brass man firing an artillery cannon at us so already better than my first visit. And no giant fortress walls either, so things are definitely improving.

Reflecting the mood of the country, of course.

"Well lookie here!" I turn as I step aside, spotting Uncle Sam sitting on George Washington's lap. "Can't say I thought you'd ever come back."

"Didn't plan to. Is the vulture around?"

...I guess the Washington Monument is a little different in this ideal realm. There's a statue of Washington at the monument, but he's not sitting. Lincoln, on the other hand...

"Y'all worried about Johnny? Don't be."

"I don't like getting people killed by accident. It makes me-."

Eh, as long as the thing he represented still exists in the mind of the people, the symbol here would live on.

Isaiah comes through first, eyes wide as he looks around. Then Antonia and Edward, looking much the same-.

Goodness me, but I've become jaded.

Slager, Argent and Kid Devil, again. Looking suitably awed.

"Uh, excuse me?" Edward looks up at Uncle Sam as the rest of the tour pass through the portal. "You're not supposed to sit up there."

"Ah?" Uncle Sam raises his eyebrows as Zatanna pushes through the crowd towards Edward. "Well, I'm sure-" He turns to face the statue. "-I'm very sorry, Georgie-boy."

Heh. Depending on the stories, Sam knew the real George Washington, even advised and counselled him at times. I'm sure his spirit wouldn't mind...

"Oh, that's alright." The statue reaches over and picks him up around the waist, and then lowers him to the ground. "I prefer you doing it to the other guy."

Edward blinks, his mouth hanging open. "Huh?"

...Don't talk about that one. You might get his attention.

"Shut your mouth, young man." Uncle Sam extends his cane and gently raises Edward's jaw. "You'll catch flies, else."

Alan nods to Uncle Sam. "Good to see you looking better."

Ah, Old friends meeting again.

"Well, there was a bad patch in the New Year, but I hear you fellahs fixed it."

"We did. How bad was it here?"

A bit more doom-and-gloom than usual, I would imagine.

"Bad. Poor old Kennedy was runnin' on fumes, keeping it from getting worse." Uncle Sam looks around the party. "This an educational trip?"

"It is."

John F Kennedy embodying all of Modern America's hopes and dreams, of course.

"Then perhaps I should just show you all. It's a mite gruesome, but maybe that'll just make it stick their noggins all the more firmly."

He turns and walks away from us, down an empty road.

Hopefully not a long and lonesome road...

"Come along, children! Let Uncle Sam show you what's what!"

Isaiah looks to Zatanna for confirmation. "Uncle Sam? The guy from World War Two?"

Bit older than that, but he was acting publicly back then. (And appearing in comics of the day...)

She nods as she leads the crowd after him. "That's him."

"How old is he?"

"About two hundred and thirty years old."

As old as the idea of America, basically.

"Huh?"

"Essentially, he's the idealised embodied form of American idealism. Not sure why he looks like an old man. Blame your ancestors, I guess."

And waxing and waning in power as the mood of the country shifted...

"My ancestors?"

Uncle Sam raises his walking stick and waves it pointedly. "The other fellow mighta cared that you're a negro, I just care that you're a good man. Don't you be thinking you're not included, son."

"Ah, okay. So where are we going?"

For those who don't remember, that would be the 'alternate' Uncle Sam, representing the flipside of the Heartlands, and correspondingly inverted in character: Selfish, Conceited and Prejudiced.

Ah, and perhaps we see the shape of the episode. This little field trip into the spiritual landscape of America exposing some worms in the soil. It's certainly a diverse group here, mostly American and hailing from all parts of the mainland States. And even the guests should be welcome for the most parts.

Darko · 2026-09-20T09:37:05+0100

Mr Zoat said:
It's a reflection of the America."

"of America"

Mr Zoat said:
"No singing Yankee Doodle."

"I wasn't going to, but suddenly I want to

And you may have to if Sam is killed and you need to revive him.

Mr Zoat · 2026-09-20T09:48:45+0100

Chojin Patriarch said:
...I guess the Washington Monument is a little different in this ideal realm. There's a statue of Washington at the monument, but he's not sitting. Lincoln, on the other hand...

Oh, whoops. No, that's me getting it wrong. Hang on...

Darko said:
"of America"

Thank you, corrected.

And you may have to if Sam is killed and you need to revive him.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/7MSC7gALHdQ?si=ORFr4LJ7Oa3dE4Mk

Darko · 2026-09-20T09:55:58+0100

Vaermina said:
It was less then 90 ships, I just watched the part in the movie and counted

And that's still more than just a dozen like you claimed.

Vaermina said:
Which is meaningless as the vast majority of Orange Lantern's more dangerous abilities come from things he can't do without access to DC tech, abilities, and the Ophidian.

And yet power rings are still incredibly powerful, even without those things.

Vaermina said:
They don't have to catch him, the galaxy is dead outside of the small chunk of space Babylon 5 takes place in, all they have to do is make sure he has no ground to run too.

And the parts that are still alive are vast and have enough space for him to hide in.

Heck, even the dead parts aren't that much of a problem, since with a power ring his physical needs are met without him having to eat, sleep, drink or even breathe.

Vaermina said:
Yes, Delenn absolutely would, because achieving peace doesn't matter if he's refusing to let them pass on since the Minbari religion is all about reincarnation

Okay, and if he just let's let's the Minbari pass on, but the others stay because they don't believe e in the Minbari religion, what then?

There's not much she can actually do to him.

Vaermina said:
Yes, the only way they might not is if the First One's he claims to be an agent of show up and prove they exist and support him

Yeah, because First Ones regularly show up in order to appease younger races.

Vaermina said:
Yes, Delenn played straight to character would thank him, listen to him, then ask politely that he release the souls he's holding. At which point if he refuses then she would know he's not being honest about his good intentions.

And at that point she'd be unable to do anything, aside from maybe barring other Minbari from speaking to him or doing business with him.

In which case, the Minbari souls he has will not find peace because he can't help them.

Vaermina said:
No, it proves that you were over-claiming about actual power ring capabilities.

And you always underplay power ring abilities.

Vaermina said:
This is Babylon 5, not DC comics, the most advanced tech he could potentially scan is Minbari tech since he's already been proven to be unable to scan First One tech.

So if the Minbari attack him, he can just scan and replicate their tech.

Vaermina said:
Not that he would be able to duplicate it if he could since Power Rings can't duplicate organic tech.

Provide a quote where it's stated that orange rings can't scan organic tech.

Because orange rings have been shown as being able to manipulate flesh multiple times, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they can't do that.

Vaermina said:
Shadows can generate defensive energy constructs, were they doing so to protect themselves? Yes or No.

They can only generate a shield that protects the front of their bodies.

Lyta shot them in the back and they died.

Vaermina said:
JMS literally said it would have worked both online and directly in the show since that was one of Londo's "three chances".

And I'll say it again, Londo used what few options he thought were best to stop his planet from getting blown up.

Darko · 2026-09-20T13:29:15+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Edward smile. "Oh! Thanks Dove!"

"smiles"

Mr Zoat said:
"Or I could just set fire to the White House

You're about two hundred years late for that.

Mr Zoat · 2026-09-20T16:11:34+0100

Darko said:
"smiles"

Thank you, corrected.

You're about two hundred years late for that.

I figure, anytime you burn down the White House is White House burning time.

Steelplaza · 2026-09-20T16:42:28+0100

I recall reading a DC comic once that implied Superman was becoming well enough integrated into the American mythos that he too would have a mythical reflection in the Heartlands (though the comic didn't use that term). Sort of like Kennedy. The idea was that the actual Superman could potentially learn to draw on that mythic reflection to increase his own resistance to magic, patching up one of his few weaknesses. It's one thing to turn Kal-El the Kryptonian into a frog with a spell. It's another thing to transform the symbol of Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

I don't think DC ever really followed up on that idea, but I think it's interesting.

Vaermina · 2026-09-20T18:05:31+0100

Darko said:
And that's still more than just a dozen like you claimed.

I said "dozens" as in plural, you said "hundreds" as in plural.

90 = dozens, 90=/= 200+.

Darko said:
And yet power rings are still incredibly powerful, even without those things.

If you were talking a Silver Age power ring, sure, but as we saw in story, Power Rings on their own with no database, power battery, and no-enlightenment are highly limited.

Darko said:
And the parts that are still alive are vast and have enough space for him to hide in.

Heck, even the dead parts aren't that much of a problem, since with a power ring his physical needs are met without him having to eat, sleep, drink or even breathe.

Not from the Minbari they don't, nobody messes with them.

And he's incapable of living a solitary life of no-impact in the middle of nowhere.

Darko said:
Okay, and if he just let's let's the Minbari pass on, but the others stay because they don't believe e in the Minbari religion, what then?

There's not much she can actually do to him.

Assuming he lets the Minbari pass on, and could prove it to their satisfaction, the Minbari would just have a general disdain for him instead of demanding his death.

Darko said:
Yeah, because First Ones regularly show up in order to appease younger races.

They don't, but members of younger races do regularly pretend to have First One technology. (Hell, the show literally had a Kosh Impersonator on it.)

So the onus is on him to prove he's actually "representing a race of First One's" and not just someone who stumbled upon their technology.

Darko said:
And at that point she'd be unable to do anything, aside from maybe barring other Minbari from speaking to him or doing business with him.

In which case, the Minbari souls he has will not find peace because he can't help them.

Incorrect, she could also bring political pressure on everyone else to exclude him from galactic society which pretty much everyone would do since the Minbari are worth a lot more as friends then some guy with a piece of First One tech.

Darko said:
And you always underplay power ring abilities.

No, I play them exactly as they are shown in the story.

Darko said:
So if the Minbari attack him, he can just scan and replicate their tech.

Some of it, but then the Minbari would send the warrior caste with fleets to kill him.

Darko said:
Provide a quote where it's stated that orange rings can't scan organic tech.

Because orange rings have been shown as being able to manipulate flesh multiple times, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they can't do that.

I didn't say they can't scan organic tech, I said they can't scan First One tech.

I said they can't make constructs of organic tech, which is canon and something Zoat has covered in story multiple times.

Darko said:
They can only generate a shield that protects the front of their bodies.

Lyta shot them in the back and they died.

So not just no, thus proving my point, but you added a new claim on top of it.

Get to proving.

Darko said:
And I'll say it again, Londo used what few options he thought were best to stop his planet from getting blown up.

And JMS literally said he did not and let his desire for revenge get the better of him.

teikan · 2026-09-20T18:48:22+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Harmony is something… How ponies live when they're completely virtuous. How Equestrian society would work… The 'utopian' version,

No, harmony is literally a separate entity.

https://mlp.fandom.com/wiki/What_Lies_Beneath

And now, somepony who knows how unicorn ponies fight.

Trixie. Seriously, how could you remember Tempest but miss out on such an outstanding battle unicorn?

Now: if pegasus pony soldiers don't know how to use weather as a weapon, who does?

Surprisingly, Trixie... I'm serious.

Sunset shakes her head. "I told you: there aren't any earth ponies in Equestria who know how to use earth pony magic."

No one... Except for the pinky, maud, cheese sandwich. Perhaps we could also invite Applejack to the lesson in case we suddenly need to grow a daisy on the battlefield and try our luck with Zecora, but otherwise, there aren't many left... Except for a WHOLE ARMY of PINKIE CLONES, each of whom has no home, no job, no documents,
and happily acquired all of this

Darko · 2026-09-20T19:41:12+0100

Vaermina said:
If you were talking a Silver Age power ring, sure, but as we saw in story, Power Rings on their own with no database, power battery, and no-enlightenment are highly limited

Yeah, they are limited.

But they're still stronger than 99% of things in this universe.

Vaermina said:
Not from the Minbari they don't, nobody messes with them.

And he's incapable of living a solitary life of no-impact in the middle of nowhere.

So the Minbari are omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and they can perfectly know where he is at all times and get to him?

Vaermina said:
Assuming he lets the Minbari pass on, and could prove it to their satisfaction, the Minbari would just have a general disdain for him instead of demanding his death.

I think he can live with that.

Vaermina said:
Incorrect, she could also bring political pressure on everyone else to exclude him from galactic society which pretty much everyone would do since the Minbari are worth a lot more as friends then some guy with a piece of First One tech.

Yeah, because politicians in this universe don't do backroom deals with others.

Vaermina said:
No, I play them exactly as they are shown in the story.

And we know you don't really read the story.

Vaermina said:
Some of it, but then the Minbari would send the warrior caste with fleets to kill him.

And he somehow won't be able to get away from them, or defeat them, why?

Vaermina said:
I said they can't make constructs of organic tech, which is canon and something Zoat has covered in story multiple times

Provide a quote where this is stated, or drop it.

Vaermina said:
So not just no, thus proving my point, but you added a new claim on top of it.

Nope, I just watched the movie and have a basic, functional memory.

It was during the part where Sheridan ended up in timeline where the Shadows invaded Babylon 5.

Vaermina said:
Get to proving

Ha!

You sating that someone should do this is as hilarious as it is hypocritical.

Watch the movie and try to remember something.

Even if I provided you with the proof you'd just ignore it.

Mr Zoat · 2026-09-20T20:18:01+0100

teikan said:
No, harmony is literally a separate entity.

https://mlp.fandom.com/wiki/What_Lies_Beneath

That episode is after I stopped watching.

Trixie. Seriously, how could you remember Tempest but miss out on such an outstanding battle unicorn?

Surprisingly, Trixie... I'm serious.

Trixie is a member of an innately magical species who makes her living doing fake magic, but is so bad at fake magic that she needed Starlight's help to fake doing fake magic. The only time she was actually a threat was when she used the Alicorn Amulet, and that drove her nuts.

No one... Except for the pinky, maud, cheese sandwich. Perhaps we could also invite Applejack to the lesson in case we suddenly need to grow a daisy on the battlefield and try our luck with Zecora, but otherwise, there aren't many left... Except for a WHOLE ARMY of PINKIE CLONES, each of whom has no home, no job, no documents,
and happily acquired all of this

I'm pretty sure that whatever Pinkie does, it doesn't involve earth pony magic. And Maud doesn't exactly put herself out there. Sunset might have heard of Rusty Tenure, but even that's not very likely.

teikan · 2026-09-20T21:24:42+0100

Mr Zoat said:
That episode is after I stopped watching.

OK

Trixie is a member of an innately magical species who makes her living doing fake magic, but is so bad at fake magic that she needed Starlight's help to fake doing fake magic. The only time she was actually a threat was when she used the Alicorn Amulet, and that drove her nuts.

No, her magic is strong. In her first appearance it is demonstrated that she can create cloud and teleport objects - Very good results for a unicorn. Starlight's teleportation training is a retcon. (And if we use the information further in the series, then Trixie is stronger than Starlight because she was able to change Rarity's mane when Starlight and Twilight could not)
Trixie, without magic, was able to evade and resist army of changelings (as well somehow teleport without magic. This is confirmed by her human version being able to do the same.)

I'm pretty sure that whatever Pinkie does, it doesn't involve earth pony magic. And Maud doesn't exactly put herself out there. Sunset might have heard of Rusty Tenure, but even that's not very likely.

Only earth ponies did cartoonish things. The fact that only earth ponies did it is enough for me..
I haven't checked, but as far as I remember, when Tirek and Kozy take pinkie magic, she stopped using cartoon tricks.

Oh, I also forgot to mention that cutie marks give skills/powers. When Apple Bloom got her cutie marks in season two, she learned how to do new things instantly.

Mr Zoat · 2026-09-20T23:24:45+0100

teikan said:
No, her magic is strong. In her first appearance it is demonstrated that she can create cloud and teleport objects - Very good results for a unicorn.

We don't know that. We aren't ever presented with an in-universe power scale. All we can do is compare the observed and almost certainly incomplete feats shown on screen.

Starlight's teleportation training is a retcon. (And if we use the information further in the series, then Trixie is stronger than Starlight because she was able to change Rarity's mane when Starlight and Twilight could not)

I don't remember them trying to change Rarity's mane, and even if they couldn't, that might just mean that they haven't learned that particular spell.

Trixie, without magic, was able to evade and resist army of changelings (as well somehow teleport without magic. This is confirmed by her human version being able to do the same.)

I... Don't remember her teleporting without magic, which... Would require a machine?

Only earth ponies did cartoonish things. The fact that only earth ponies did it is enough for me..

When does an earth pony who isn't Pinkie Pie do things like that?

Oh, I also forgot to mention that cutie marks give skills/powers. When Apple Bloom got her cutie marks in season two, she learned how to do new things instantly.

Apple Bloom was afflicted by a magical disease. I don't think we can take that as representative of how it works.

Megaolix · 2026-09-21T01:35:32+0100

Questianor said:
Liberals will look you dead in the eyes and tell you that issue was good writing and that it fairly represented both sides.

I have no idea why you went with Liberals, but no baiting, please.

Vaermina · 2026-09-21T03:18:28+0100

Darko said:
Yeah, they are limited.

But they're still stronger than 99% of things in this universe.

Only if you discount First One technology, Third Space technology, warships, and psychics.

Darko said:
So the Minbari are omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and they can perfectly know where he is at all times and get to him?

Na, but with a heavily limited ability to recharge he lacks the ability to cover his tracks long term in any sort of technological civilization.

Darko said:
I think he can live with that.

Except it rests on him actually releasing the Souls, something he hasn't shown the willingness to do.

Darko said:
Yeah, because politicians in this universe don't do backroom deals with others.

And what does he have to offer that would make it worth enough to risk the Minbari coming down on them?

Darko said:
And he somehow won't be able to get away from them, or defeat them, why?

This isn't Orange Lantern, without the Ophidian and Orange Soul Enlightenment he can barely increase his reaction speeds and he can't greedport.

Without a DC tech database he would need to be able to make 100+ meter constructs to create weapons capable of fighting warships.

And most races have standard ground weaponry capable of punching through environmental shields like they're not even there, which means he's vulnerable to sneak and surprise attacks.

Darko said:
Provide a quote where this is stated, or drop it.

The parts where Orange Lantern visited organic tech world.

By the way, you just argued that Zoat Power Rings can create constructs of living being, so prove it. And assimilation doesn't count.

Darko said:
Nope, I just watched the movie and have a basic, functional memory.

It was during the part where Sheridan ended up in timeline where the Shadows invaded Babylon 5.

Given you just got done misremembering the number of Soul Hunter ships and then misremembered that I said "dozens" and not "a dozen" that's certainly a claim to make...

BR549 · 2026-09-21T03:53:53+0100

Chojin Patriarch said:
Because the revolutionaries took the song and turned it back on them.

A fun bit about Yankee Doodle is that "and called it macaroni" doesn't refer to the pasta - at least, not directly. 'Maccaroni' was a flamboyant, androgynous fashion style that was indirectly named after the pasta; having come to enjoy it after passing through Italy, 'macaroni' came to refer to anything stylish and fashionable in the circles of the Euro-traveling youth of the time, and then to the specific fashion style itself.

This means that "stuck a feather in his cap and called it Gucci" would not be an inaccurate modernization of the line...

Darko · 2026-09-21T04:11:06+0100

Vaermina said:
Only if you discount First One technology, Third Space technology, warships, and psychics.

That's why I said 99%.

Vaermina said:
And what does he have to offer that would make it worth enough to risk the Minbari coming down on them?

He has whatever knowledge the souls he has possess, which can have great cultural, historic, or scientific implications for their respective species.

And with the rings ability to manipulate his appearance, sneaking around isn't going to be difficult.

Vaermina said:
This isn't Orange Lantern, without the Ophidian and Orange Soul Enlightenment he can barely increase his reaction speeds and he can't greedport.

Without a DC tech database he would need to be able to make 100+ meter constructs to create weapons capable of fighting warships.

And most races have standard ground weaponry capable of punching through environmental shields like they're not even there, which means he's vulnerable to sneak and surprise attacks

The fact that he's not a super Lantern like Paragon does not mean that he's some kind of weakling.

You obviously forgot that he was able to easily travel to Vorlon space.

Vaermina said:
The parts where Orange Lantern visited organic tech world.

Provide an actual quote, not just a vague description.

At this point your credibility about what's happened in this story is so destroyed that you will need to provide actual proof about your claims instead of just vague descriptions.

if anyone else had just given the "proof" you did, it would be believable, but with you it's not since you have lied and misinterpreted things a lot.

Vaermina said:
By the way, you just argued that Zoat Power Rings can create constructs of living being, so prove it. And assimilation doesn't count.

Orange rings have shown the ability to manipulate flesh and organic matter.

In the first chapter he literary changed how he looks, has been able to heal organic beings, could create limbs etc.

Vaermina said:
Given you just got done misremembering the number of Soul Hunter ships and then misremembered that I said "dozens" and not "a dozen" that's certainly a claim to make...

I'm going to say that you should just watch the movie, but I know you won't remember to do so.

hkim · 2026-09-21T05:08:17+0100

Darko said:
- snip -

This isn't going to end until you stop, you know that right? Nobody's ever out-nerd-fought Vaermina.

Mr Zoat · 2026-09-21T06:29:30+0100

6th October 2013
14:09 GMT -5

I'm…

Ah…

Somewhere off to my left, someone is being sick.

Uncle Sam looks up proudly at the large and hearty-looking tree, both hands on his hips. "This here is the Tree of Liberty."

And… I'm honestly used to the smell by now. Mostly, my environmental shield blocks things like that out, but in here… No, I can smell it.

Uncle Sam turns around with a grin. "Who wants to water it?!"

Seeing as how everyone else is stunned…

"I'm neither a patriot nor a tyrant, but I'm happy to donate a pint if it helps?"

Alan's face falls when he realises that Uncle Sam is serious. "I didn't think it was quite this literal. I guess I really should have."

Uncle Sam ambles over to a miniature shed, goes inside and then comes out… With a watering can. He smiles as he offers it to me. Not being one to back down in the presence of a colonial, I take it-.

It's already filled with blood, good show.

I walk over to the closest root patch… I have no idea what sort of tree this is. The closest match on my database is the white pine, but the white pine is proportionally taller rather than squat like this tree, and the white pine's roots don't usually stick out of the ground like this.

Well… Here we go.

I tip the watering can, blood… Dribbling out, because blood is far more viscous than w-.

Fhhhh.

Water.

Is it..? Sucking?

The Tree of Liberty is some sort of vampire tree. Uh. Okay?

I turn towards the rest of the class. "Anyone else want a go?"

Alan gives me a thumbs up. "You're doing great, Paul."

Timothy looks the tree over. "What does this..? Actually..? Do?"

Uncle Sam steps over the exposed roots as he approaches the main trunk, running his hands over-. Is that a patch of tar?

"Keeps America free, more or less. It's a totem of belief, taking in strength from sacrifices made in its name and shining like a beacon in the souls of all Americans."

"Sacrifices?"

"Yeah, the blood of patriots and tyrants, son-. Are you English?"

Timothy nods. "Yes."

"You don't study American history at all?"

"Not much. I've picked up things from television and films, but there's a lot I don't know. Um. Is this an Aztec tree?"

Aztek looks mildly less impressed than normal. "No."

Uncle Sam walks slowly around the tree, keeping a hand on the trunk. "No, it surely is not? Why would you ask that?"

"You just told me it was powered by human sacrifice. Aztecs did that."

"It's powered by the blood shed by patriots as they fight for liberty, and by the blood of those they kill while doing it. Not by people dragged to a sacrificial slab to have their hearts cut out."

"Oh. Does that do anything to their souls?"

"Do souls have blood?"

"I'm… Not sure. I don't meet a lot of souls. Demons bleed, but I'm not sure if that's actually blood or not."

Uncle Sam finishes his circumnavigation of the Tree and wanders back towards the class. "You children have had interesting lives, haven't you?"

Is this bit of ground sufficiently watered? I look down-. There's no dampness on the ground, but the roots look… Satisfied, somehow. Okay, moving on.

Timothy is actually following me. That's the Constantine-trained instinct right there: see something interesting and start prodding it, regardless of how dangerous it is to you and everyone around you.

"So is it literally blood? Do you go out and… Suck it out of the patriots and tyrants? I think someone would notice that."

"Don't be a fool, boy. The 'blood' here is a representation of their sacrifice. It's an echo if you will, rather than actual blood. Though actual blood would work just as well, if'n you could bring it here."

Timothy frowns at him. "It's the soul of their blood?"

"It's more a shell that builds up around them as they live. The space they make in the world. You know about poltergeists?"

"Oh." Timothy nods. "Yes. That makes sense. What's in the shed?"

Uncle Sam grins. "The bodies, of course. Need to drain 'em properly!"

There's a noticeable intake of breath from several people, but Timothy appears to take that in his stride, too.

"And the bodies are made from the echoes of their lives."

"You're pretty sharp. But it's not a simple thing, draining 'em. Have to keep an eye out for the worms."

"Worms?"

Uncle Sam nods. "Spineless, bile-filled things that never did a good day's work in their miserable lives. They love feeding off the blood of patriots, too. But they don't give anything back; they just multiply. I think the Anti-Life killed most of 'em off, but I want to make sure they don't come back."

Timothy thinks for a moment, then looks at me for confirmation. "This is Washington, right?"

"Yes."

"So spineless worms are..?" He looks meaningfully at Antonia.

"Yes."

She looks confused. "What?"

"They're a manifestation of systemic political corruption. No offence intended to your father…"

She choke-laughs.

"They're more dangerous than they sound. Ah, Uncle Sam? What happened to The Brass?"

"Shrunk down and paralysed, with no one feeding him. I can show you where he's lying later. But first, how about all you kids help me check the whole area for worms. It'll make my life easier, and improve the state of your government."

Zatanna nods happily. "Sure! We'd love to help. Okay everyone: teams of four. Let's deworm Washington!"

néocorvinus · 2026-09-21T06:36:42+0100

Ok, that was fun.

Ngamer11 · 2026-09-21T06:39:38+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Timothy looks the tree over. "Was does this..? Actually..? Do?"

That should say 'What'.

Mr Zoat said:
"You don't study American history at all?"

"Not much. I've picked up things from television and films, but there's a lot I don't know. Um. Is this an Aztec tree?"

Aztek looks mildly less impressed than normal. "No."

Uncle Sam walks slowly around the tree, keeping a hand on the trunk. "No, it surely is not? Why would you ask that?"

"You just told me it was powered by human sacrifice. Aztecs did that."

"It's powered by the blood shed by patriots as they fight for liberty, and by the blood of those they kill while doing it. Not by people dragged to a sacrificial slab to have their hearts cut out."

Good question from Timothy, and funny interaction with Aztek.

Mr Zoat said:
"Don't be a fool, boy. The 'blood' here is a representation of their sacrifice. It's an echo if you will, rather than actual blood. Though actually blood would work just as well, if'n you could bring it here."

That should say 'actual'.

Mr Zoat said:
"Worms?"

Uncle Sam nods. "Spineless, bile-filled things that never did a good day's work in their miserable lives. They love feeding off the blood of patriots, too. But they don't give anything back; they just multiply. I think the Anti-Life killed most of 'em off, but I want to make sure they don't come back."

Timothy thinks for a moment, then looks at me for conformation. "This is Washington, right?"

"Yes."

"So spineless worms are..?" He looks meaningfully at Antonia.

"Yes."

She looks confused. "What?"

"They're a manifestation of systemic political corruption. No offence intended to your father…"

She choke-laughs.

"They're more dangerous than they sound. Ah, Uncle Sam? What happened to The Brass?"

"Shrunk down and paralysed, with no one feeding him. I can show you where he's lying later. But first, how about all you kids help me check the whole area for worms. It'll make my life easier, and improve the state of your government."

I assume both the Worms and the Brass will become active again, necessitating their subjugation.

BlackCoat13 · 2026-09-21T06:46:08+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Timothy looks the tree over. "Was does this..? Actually..? Do?"

"What

inglorius · 2026-09-21T07:05:16+0100

Mr Zoat said:
conformation

Confirmation in this context.
OL didn't spill a lot of blood for american freedom in particular though. I guess it's a part of Earth's freedom.
They should get Euryanthe here

Chojin Patriarch · 2026-09-21T07:17:46+0100

Mr Zoat said:
6th October 2013
14:09 GMT -5

I'm…

Ah…

Somewhere off to my left, someone is being sick.

Huh. Not off to a great start, then. I suppose not everything about the Heartlands can be suburbs with white picket fences or fields of wheat and corn blowing in the wind. Plenty of darkness in the American Dream, after all.

Uncle Sam looks up proudly at the large and hearty-looking tree, both hands on his hips. "This here is the Tree of Liberty."

And… I'm honestly used to the smell by now. Mostly, my environmental shield blocks things like that out, but in here… No, I can smell it.

As mentioned by Thomas Jefferson, in reference to a French concept (itself inspired by an American idea.)

Uncle Sam turns around with a grin. "Who wants to water it?!"

Seeing as how everyone else is stunned…

I wonder how metaphorical that is, given that the 'refreshing' Thomas Jefferson's comment referred to was as much literal revolutions as the idea of overturning tyranny.

"I'm neither a patriot nor a tyrant, but I'm happy to donate a pint if it helps?"

Alan's face falls when he realises that Uncle Sam is serious. "I didn't think it was quite this literal. I guess I really should have."

Sometimes history is ugly, as is the spirit of a nation. I don't think there's any country in the world with a perfectly clean ledger... Every book has a little red in it.

Uncle Sam ambles over to a miniature shed, goes inside and then comes out… With a watering can. He smiles as he offers it to me. Not being one to back down in the presence of a colonial, I take it-.

It's already filled with blood, good show.

Since OL is neither a patriot or a tyrant, I doubt his blood would have been very effective feed.

I walk over to the closest root patch… I have no idea what sort of tree this is. The closest match on my database is the white pine, but the white pine is proportionally taller rather than squat like this tree, and the white pine's roots don't usually stick out of the ground like this.

Growing a little wild, I see. Given their recent years, I'm not surprised.

Well… Here we go.

I tip the watering can, blood… Dribbling out, because blood is far more viscous than w-.

Fhhhh.

And not nearly as red as you'd assume, especially old blood.

Water.

Is it..? Sucking?

The Tree of Liberty is some sort of vampire tree. Uh. Okay?

More that the concept of liberty hungers for its 'manure'. I suspect Liberty has been a little starved in recent months.

I turn towards the rest of the class. "Anyone else want a go?"

Alan gives me a thumbs up. "You're doing great, Paul."

...Yeah, he's not taking a turn anytime soon.

Timothy looks the tree over. "Was does this..? Actually..? Do?"

Uncle Sam steps over the exposed roots as he approaches the main trunk, running his hands over-. Is that a patch of tar?

Because even liberty can get sick. Probably caused by the Anti-Life, unspoken tyranny by one group or another, or the like.

"Keeps America free, more or less. It's a totem of belief, taking in strength from sacrifices made in its name and shining like a beacon in the souls of all Americans."

"Sacrifices?"

Not shining as brightly in the last few years, I imagine.

"Yeah, the blood of patriots and tyrants, son-. Are you English?"

Timothy nods. "Yes."

It's not like Britain doesn't have similar ideas. They're just not quite as loud-spoken as Americans get about it.

"You don't study American history at all?"

"Not much. I've picked up things from television and films, but there's a lot I don't know. Um. Is this an Aztec tree?"

It's not uncommon. Most countries don't focus on other countries in history lessons as much as they do on their own. Except when those histories intersect.

Aztek looks mildly less impressed than normal. "No."

Uncle Sam walks slowly around the tree, keeping a hand on the trunk. "No, it surely is not? Why would you ask that?"

"You just told me it was powered by human sacrifice. Aztecs did that."

You're making a false equivalency there, Tim.

"It's powered by the blood shed by patriots as they fight for liberty, and by the blood of those they kill while doing it. Not by people dragged to a sacrificial slab to have their hearts cut out."

"Oh. Does that do anything to their souls?"

And even if the Azteca sacrifices were willing, there's a difference between blood spilled in ritual murders than there is to it shed in battle.

"Do souls have blood?"

"I'm… Not sure. I don't meet a lot of souls. Demons bleed, but I'm not sure if that's actually blood or not."

More like liquefied magic and dreamstuff, I imagine.

Uncle Sam finishes his circumnavigation of the Tree and wanders back towards the class. "You children have had interesting lives, haven't you?"

Is this bit of ground sufficiently watered? I look down-. There's no dampness on the ground, but the roots look… Satisfied, somehow. Okay, moving on.

At least he's being diligent about it.

Timothy is actually following me. That's the Constantine-trained instinct right there: see something interesting and start prodding it, regardless of how dangerous it is to you and everyone around you.

"So is it literally blood? Do you go out and… Suck it out of the patriots and tyrants? I think someone would notice that."

I would assume the process is post-mortem. This is a sort of mini-Dreaming, and the image of a thing can equate to the thing itself without affecting it.

"Don't be a fool, boy. The 'blood' here is a representation of their sacrifice. It's an echo if you will, rather than actual blood. Though actually blood would work just as well, if'n you could bring it here."

Timothy frowns at him. "It's the soul of their blood?"

Shake off the literal-mindedness, Tim. You've seen metaphorical stuff before, haven't you?

"It's more a shell that builds up around them as they live. The space they make in the world. You know about poltergeists?"

"Oh." Timothy nods. "Yes. That makes sense. What's in the shed?"

Ah, light dawns... By an analogy to something he does understand, even if the concepts aren't perfectly identical.

Uncle Sam grins. "The bodies, of course. Need to drain 'em properly!"

There's a noticeable intake of breath from several people, but Timothy appears to take that in his stride, too.

Presumably there's racks of tiny action-figure-sized heroes and villains in the shed, like little shelves of pot-plants with pipes collecting their spiritual juice run-off...

"And the bodies are made from the echoes of their lives."

"You're pretty sharp. But it's not a simple thing, draining 'em. Have to keep an eye out for the worms."

Ah, and we come closer to the theme of the episode. Worms in the paradise, contaminating the ideals in the name of greed and narcissistic desires.

"Worms?"

Uncle Sam nods. "Spineless, bile-filled things that never did a good day's work in their miserable lives. They love feeding off the blood of patriots, too. But they don't give anything back; they just multiply. I think the Anti-Life killed most of 'em off, but I want to make sure they don't come back."

And it's not impossible for them to form ex nihilo as this public figure or that has dark secrets exposed?

Timothy thinks for a moment, then looks at me for conformation. "This is Washington, right?"

"Yes."

"So spineless worms are..?" He looks meaningfully at Antonia.

An obvious parallel to trace out.

"Yes."

She looks confused. "What?"

"They're a manifestation of systemic political corruption. No offence intended to your father…"

It's a rare person who reaches this high an office without some dirt clinging to them.

She choke-laughs.

"They're more dangerous than they sound. Ah, Uncle Sam? What happened to The Brass?"

For those who don't remember, that would be the personification of the Military-Industrial Complex. A living caricature of military leaders, military weapons and 'patriotic' wartime slogans...

"Shrunk down and paralysed, with no one feeding him. I can show you where he's lying later. But first, how about all you kids help me check the whole area for worms. It'll make my life easier, and improve the state of your government."

Zatanna nods happily. "Sure! We'd love to help. Okay everyone: teams of four. Let's deworm Washington!"

And with any luck, it'll inspire the newly-incumbent national government to clean up their act a little before they settle fully into office.

This is going to be a big thing for the whole episode, isn't it? Euphemisms, metaphors and concepts of American culture turning out to be a bit messier than the projected illusions of propaganda. At least the rookies will get a strong sense of how much work goes into maintaining such a spiritual environment, especially in the wake of global upheavals...

B00ki5h · 2026-09-21T07:38:30+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Zatanna nods happily. "Sure! We'd love to help. Okay everyone: teams of four. Let's deworm Washington!"

Anyone who actually knows what that typically means will be as horrified as I am.

Here's hoping that she passes out the gloves and tape otherwise this is going to be really messy.

Vaermina · 2026-09-21T07:40:15+0100

Darko said:
That's why I said 99%.

Those things make up a lot more then 1% of the setting...

Darko said:
He has whatever knowledge the souls he has possess, which can have great cultural, historic, or scientific implications for their respective species.

He can talk to them, but that is all that has been shown in this story.

Darko said:
And with the rings ability to manipulate his appearance, sneaking around isn't going to be difficult.

You seem to have forgotten that before he got enlightenment Paul was heavily limited in how he could change himself due to most changes conflicting with this own subconcious wants.

Darko said:
The fact that he's not a super Lantern like Paragon does not mean that he's some kind of weakling.

No, it means he's no more powerful then early story Paul.

In fact, he's actually weaker then early story Paul, because he can't carry a lantern around with him to recharge and only regains a small trickle of power over time.

Which means shoot him with a B5 rated anti-armor rifle and, assuming he gets a barrier up in time, he'll be down enough of his ring charge that he'll be in serious danger.

Well, unless Mr Zoat either A) nerfs B5 ground weapons, or B) buffs how much energy Matthew's power ring has compared to show much Paul's held at the start of this journey.

Darko said:
You obviously forgot that he was able to easily travel to Vorlon space.

Who then trapped him in a bubble that he was only able to escape from because the Vorlon had a shocked Pikachu face moment.

The real funny thing there is that that was probably the worst thing that could happen, cause now he might think he can do the same with Z'ha'dum. Except that would end up with the Eye frying his brain the moment he got close.

Darko said:
Provide an actual quote, not just a vague description.

At this point your credibility about what's happened in this story is so destroyed that you will need to provide actual proof about your claims instead of just vague descriptions.

if anyone else had just given the "proof" you did, it would be believable, but with you it's not since you have lied and misinterpreted things a lot.

Points at High Noon thread in Rants, personal attacks go there.

Darko said:
Orange rings have shown the ability to manipulate flesh and organic matter.

In the first chapter he literary changed how he looks, has been able to heal organic beings, could create limbs etc.

None of which is creating constructs of living things.

Darko said:
I'm going to say that you should just watch the movie, but I know you won't remember to do so.

I have, which is why I know the scene your talking about doesn't go how you're describing it.

BR549 · 2026-09-21T08:06:56+0100

Metaphor: it can be really squicky sometimes!

At least there won't be many ticker-tapeworms.

Mr Zoat · 2026-09-21T08:33:33+0100

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'What'.
That should say 'actual'.

inglorius said:
Confirmation in this context.

Thank you, corrected.

WereDragon · 2026-09-21T09:53:34+0100

Mr Zoat said:
snip

This feels uncomfortably close to mind control. Of the sort Paul just spent an episode arguing with Anarchy about. And that they deliberately hid away the spear of destiny to avoid.

boo600 · 2026-09-21T10:00:10+0100

Ah, but Uncle Sam just said it was OK. It's probably something along the line of probability control, or Synchronicity Wave Traveling - removing the worms in Washington leads to evidence being uncovered that actually takes out the evil corrupt cabals and bribe takers, or something happens that scares the craven cowards and causes them to flee with the vast sums of money they've already managed to suck from the marrow of the people.

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