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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    ?

    Just read the star crossed part 1 and 2 as that is when Renegade became very entertaining, the earliest updates are mostly mirrors of the paragon barring single points of deviation thus you get the most of them from a simple summary.


    He can survive it and the rest of equestria can't (and its up to debate how "big" the sun of Wilson is) so he has nothing to be fearful just yet.
     
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  2. Steelplaza

    Steelplaza Custom Title

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    I really don't know what Sunset was looking for there. Not an explanation, certainly, because six times when Celestia tried to talk Sunset interrupted her before she could finish her sentence.

    An apology? An acknowledgement that she was wronged I guess? Well understandably that's not going to happen because Celestia correctly understood that Sunset was a real piece of shit and helping her to become an alicorn before correcting some of her character flaws would have been a bad idea.
     
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  3. WereDragon

    WereDragon Bookwyrm

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    An entire chapter of Sunset throwing a semi-coherent tantrum.
    Guess Grayven didn’t think it worth actually preparing her for the big confrontation.

    A few of the more blatant inconsistencies:
    - Believes Celestia only took students to free Luna. Sunset is apparently unaware that people can have multiple reasons for their actions.
    - Believes Celestia deliberately chose a sycophant as a student. Ignoring that pretty much the entire population of Equestria holds her in worshipful awe.
    - States that she made friends as soon as she met someone she could see as an equal. Also states that no one in Celestia’s school was even worth her time. Seems to believe Celestia should have ‘fixed’ this.
    - Just announced (via song) that what she learned on Earth would utterly revolutionise Equestrian magic. Complains that Celestia couldn’t teach her as much about magic as she learned on Earth.
    - Fundamentally Sunset still seems to believe that Celestia is all-knowing. That she could have taught Sunset everything. That every decision is deliberate, calculated to give a specific outcome. That she has no limits on what she can arrange except her own willingness to do so.

    Unless there has been a whole bunch of off-scree interactions… very little actually.
    Grayven gave her a couple of bops on the nose with the civil-war mission but for the most part all he did was gives her a well-stocked lab, a variety of associates and plenty of free time.
     
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  4. BartlettMagic

    BartlettMagic peekaboo, you fucks you!

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    is it just me or is this a hiccup in continuity or what? why would Celestia be making a point over something that Sunset already stated as a given?
     
  5. LurkingInTheDeceit

    LurkingInTheDeceit “Brave” explorer treading “New” land

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    This feels like Celestia trying to take credit for that, in a “It all worked out in the end, in fact it was a net positive experience for you” kind of way. That frustration was experienced second hand and I still hate her a bit, so great job. :D
     
  6. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Celestia not telling her how to become an Alicorn was most likely because she knew Sunset had some serious flaws that needed to be overcome, so giving her more power would have most likely ended badly.

    And yeah practically everyone on Equestria worships Celestia so finding someone who doesn't, and also is a skilled and brilliant mage, would have been very difficult.

    Celestia may become proud of how far Sunset has advanced as a mage, but as an individual...eh, i'm not sure there has been that much character development, aside from that try to listen to those that have more experience than you moment with the renegade after giving Bullock the gun to kill Hatter.
     
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  7. Norgarth

    Norgarth Making the rounds.

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    No, that's Darkseid, Grayven is the New God of Conquest (both by force or by 'Hearts and Minds')

    I'm pretty sure that when the 'Crisis of Infinite Pauls/Jades' finally occurs, both the main Pauls will be front and center in the action (as well as many/most of the alternates we've seen in the supplementary chapters)

    Grayven has reflected on occasion, that he did it on impulse (And I think it was partly a 'will this work?' experiment) and that it wasn't a very good idea. He certainly didn't expect her to be so obsessively devoted to himself. I don't think he's ever realized she's a counterpart to a Death Note character
    He's unlikely to admit it out loud (since he doesn't like admitting to mistakes period), but he's though about it a few times.
     
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  8. WereDragon

    WereDragon Bookwyrm

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    Looking at the comments, lots of people seem to think that Celestia is trying to ‘win’ the argument. She isn’t.

    Consider this:
    From Sunset’s perspective it has been a year. And at no point was there any doubt in her mind that Equestria and Celestia would be patiently waiting for her return and their epic confrontation.

    From Celestia’s perspective it has been over a decade. Sunset ran through a portal that Celestia regards as the gateway to hell. She didn’t reply to any messages in the linked-diary. She didn’t return when the ‘thirty moons’ cycle came round again. She was just gone, dust in the wind like all the others Celestia has lost over the centuries.
    And then as if by some miracle Sunset returns, hale and hearty.

    Celestia doesn’t give a barn about the argument. She doesn’t give a buck about ‘winning’ or justifying herself or any of that dross. All she cares about is finding out how her student, someone she cared deeply for, has been doing.

    Her saying "You're making friends now?" isn’t a sarcastic counterpoint. It is an expression of surprised delight.
     
  9. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    WereDragon makes a good point.
    We know that Celestia practically considers Twilight like a daughter so she probably also considered Sunset like that once.
    To know that she is alright is probably a blessing.
    She is letting her emotions get the better of her, but not anger, just love, relief and joy that she is somehow alive.
     
  10. Xmaster3000

    Xmaster3000 Know what you're doing yet?

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Give her a break, she has to spend time with ahhh politicians.
     
  12. Istaran

    Istaran Know what you're doing yet?

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    Graven: Honestly, I mostly just asked her to help whenever I had a problem that only magic could solve. And with my physical might and the technology I have access to those problems were pretty rare and specialized.
     
  13. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
     
  14. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    What's renegade Jade been doing recently, after she told them where Roy was?
     
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  15. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Working in Africa.
     
  16. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    With the Spider in destroying corrupt governments?
     
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  17. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    'Aiding the governments of less advantaged countries in overcoming corruption and poor civic infrastructure'.
     
  18. Coda

    Coda Versed in the lewd.

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    Strictly speaking, "my student and me", but given that it's dialogue it's probably intentional.

    Sunset strikes me as the type to be pedantic enough to say "apes".

    Not sure if this was intentional or if you meant "Grayven."
     
  19. iamnuff

    iamnuff Connoisseur.

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    Friendship and magic.

    He hasn't, actually. Not intentionally, anyway, but it's snappy and it reminds people that friendship and magic aren't actually the same subject.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  20. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Got bored enough to read this one....ahem

    Everything about this pisses me off. More of that "I could have taught you things that are worthwhile, but I wanted you to have perspective/Be humble/Normal life" Dumbledore/Hiruzen/literally any "mentor" of a chosen one that doesn't really do their fucking job ever.

    Thought it was Grayven?

    Also, that's be big 10-4 on the go fuck yourself woman pony creature who fucked things up and thus doesn't deserve answers to shit.
     
  21. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    Keep in mind this is a setting where Friendship is a magical weapon of mass destruction.
     
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  22. nic611

    nic611 Getting out there.

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    I mean the 'worthwhile' thing that Sunset wanted to learn was the method to become an Alicorn and the process to do so that Celestia knows of involves making friends as a prerequisite to the process. So in this case the "have perspective/Be humble/Normal life" thing was a necessary step in reaching the 'worthwhile' lessons.

    And really would you teach a method to acquire almost god-like power to someone that seems extremely anti-social and hates interacting with almost everyone, when part of going through with the process involves basically learning to interact with people.
     
  23. Akshka

    Akshka Wait, am I lost?

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    "go fuck yourself"
    "What"
    "Oh excuse me *gets a megaphone* go fuck yourself please"
     
  24. w34v3r

    w34v3r Versed in the lewd.

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    Well yeah, that's how you know they won't use that power to become politicians.
     
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  25. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Sunset may think that she could have made friends with people that share similar interests to her, but this could still prevent her from wielding the Elements, because even if she thinks she could have made friends it would most likely be a relationship of colleagues and she can still try to keep a distance from them and may not become that close to them.
    Remember she is an anti-social and somewhat arrogant person.
    For all Celestia could have known Sunset could have resented people who who were as smart, smarter, or tried to become as smart as her and needed some humility.

    And before anyone starts badmouthing me that this humility takes the form of making someone feel down, let me remind you that we are talking about a highly arrogant and anti social person that wants to become a god, you don't give someone like that that much power unless they are humble, or at least have better control over themselves and their impulses.
    Sunset has done things that put her so called genius into question.
    She is a brilliant scholar and mage, but in everything else...ehh

    Celestia isn't trying to make her feel down about her accomplishments and trying to put her down.
    She just discovered that her student, who she probably thought was dead for over a decade, was alive and well and had made friends, something that she wanted for her.
    She is like a parent who just discovered their child was alive and doing well, OR COURSE she isn't going to think in a totally rational manner and may fixate on certain things, because she is extremely RELIVED,
    And her being suspicious of the renegade is logical, because there is a complete unknown in her home that may have done something to her former student.
    If Luna, or the Mane 6, showed her their memories of him she may still be suspicious because he could have manipulated them.

    Even if Sunset gets her 'apology' from Celestia like she wants it, it will be a hollow one, or at least even if it is genuine it won't be like the one she wishes.
    Zoat is a brilliant writer and he has created scenarios that make his characters think about what they want and what getting it will feel like, i really hope that he doesn't just write one where Celestia just apologizes to Sunset.
    She can apologize, but i get the feeling the taste of victory will be bitter.
     
  26. zerofarad

    zerofarad Know what you're doing yet?

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    them -> her?

    This episode/arc keeps getting more interesting!
     
  27. w34v3r

    w34v3r Versed in the lewd.

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    To be fair, being suspicious of Grayven is logical because he's a smug git.
     
  28. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
     
  29. Threadmarks: Equestrian Guise (part 12)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Canterlot
    Afternoon


    "I'm pretty sure at this point that she's… Waaaay done with being your student."

    Celestia breathes in… And then out again. "Yes, I did notice that."

    "But you said it anyway. I don't really care, but Sunset's very angry with you and slips like that are just going to make things worse."

    She considers for a moment, then nods. "I only meant to send her away from the palace for a short time, to allow her to experience more of life and hopefully gain some perspective on her obsession. My intent was to resume her tuition when she was in a more receptive frame of mind."

    "Um. Okay? And… When she scoured the country for arcane lore and kept trying to become an alicorn anyway as the ultimate expression of her special talent and the destiny the mirror showed her, hating you all the while for having all the answers and refusing to share them… What then? Because… That's what would have happened."

    "I have more faith in m-. In Sunset than to believe that."

    "Faith..? Oh, sure, she wouldn't have tried causing eternal night or anything, but that pony lives for arcane study. You should see her work on Equestria's harmony field."

    Celestia starts to smile, then frowns in confusion. "What do you mean by 'harmony field'?"

    "That's a conversation you should probably have with her. It's fairly fundamental to your disagreement."

    She lowers her head slightly. "I would appreciate it if you would tell me anyway."

    "Magic is not something you passively use. It both acts on and is acted upon. Create a harmonious realm and that harmony can be a source of arcane power to those who embody it. But there's nothing special about harmony in that regard. My own.. father… Rules a world filled with something called the Anti-Life. And the world on the far side of Starswirl's mirror has a chaotically complex system with no overriding guiding ideology."

    I shake my head.

    "The point being: while there are good reasons for accepting the virtues of harmony for their own sake, and they do grant increased magic strength while in Equestria, the link is extrinsic rather than intrinsic."

    "That is what you taught her?"

    "I didn't teach her thaumaturgy. I just bought her books and a laboratory. She worked it out herself." I nod at the blackboard. "If you want a more detailed explanation, it's on the board. No, my lessons with Sunset were more about application. I would present her with a practical problem, and she would attempt to solve it."

    Celestia nods. "What happened to Sunset when she passed through the mirror?"

    "She came out in a small park in a major city. There isn't any sort of marker on the other side now… If there ever was."

    She shakes her head. "I have not had cause to use the Mirror for many years. I have no knowledge of what lies on the other side."

    "I'm more surprised that no one's come through from my side by accident. The portal wasn't on a major thoroughfare or anything, but it's not out of the way."

    Or… Have people come through before, only to have their memories obliviated away? I checked Philadelphia's records once Sunset told me that the portal's end point was fixed, but I didn't find anything that fit what I think I know about Equestria. Didn't bother looking for amnesia

    "Have you taken measures to ensure that nopony will do so?"

    I frown. "It was the middle of a major city. We do have equines, but they're more like your… Pre-sophoncy ancestors. They're kept as pets or beasts of burden." She seems to take that news with equanimity. Heh. "There aren't any in central Philadelphia. If you're talking about inadvertent human visitors, you don't need to worry. Sunset worked out how to move the end point and it's now in her laboratory, which is in a fortified area. That's not to say that a sufficiently clever physicist or wizard couldn't work out how to replicate the link, but…" I nearly-shrug. "There's no risk of a chance encounter."

    "I'm glad. I imagine that it would be quite distressing for someone from an alien world to fall through and be stranded here."

    "… Yes, because you.. couldn't just board it up from your side?"

    Celestia gives her head a small shake. "I hoped that Sunset Shimmer would return one day. As the years passed I realised that that was increasingly unlikely, but still: I did not want to block her one avenue for returning here."

    "If you think a couple of boards would have stopped her, you're really underestimating her."

    "She was.. certainly always determined." She pauses for a moment. "She said that only a year passed for you?"

    "Almost to the minute. Makes me wonder if the spell controlling the aperture opening was set to something on our side rather than yours. Though Sunset's fixed it now; one spell to keep it open and some mana siphons to ensure that it retains power. She really is quite clever."

    "Sunset's problem was never her intelligence."

    "Did you really kick her out for reading a history book? I realise that I've only heard one side of that disagreement, but I doubt that she told me a direct lie."

    "No, I did not kick her out for reading a history book. The history book was simply the last instance of her disregarding my instructions before I banished her from the palace for repeatedly ignoring my lessons. I hoped that after she was forced to interact with other ponies for a time she would come to realise the error of her ways and learn the lessons in humility and compassion that I had failed to teach her."

    "And you had no ulterior motive in the direction of your teachings?"

    "I'm not sure what you're implying-."

    "I'm not good at estimating the age of ponies. But I know a human teenager when I see one. Your newly alicornised acolyte isn't all that old. Probably too young to remember that you had another student just before her. If Sunset had stayed she'd be in her prime right now. Did you mean for her to confront Nightmare Moon?"

    "Yes, I hoped that Sunset would develop the virtues necessary to wield the Elements of Harmony. I hope that for all my little ponies. Those virtues underpin our society, and encourage my little ponies' happiness."

    "And it was pure chance that you took on two magic-talent unicorns as students in the run-up to your sister's return? Sunset's never mentioned her predecessor. If I were to examine your records how far back would I have to look to find one?"

    "Quite.. some way." Her face hardens. "But I did not simply discard Sunset when she went against my wishes. She left through the mirror of her own volition."

    "After you banished her. And after she came to you to learn magic and you spent years focusing on ethics instead. And you didn't explain why at any point."

    "Should I take it then that the curriculum which you have been teaching her does not involve ethics?"

    "A year with an alien magic system, and she's the most capable magic user her age on the planet. She'll be an archmage before she's twenty. You want me to waste that potential trying to turn her into a moral philosopher?"

    "I want to know that you're not just using her as a.. device for research. Sunset is a pony, and whatever she thinks, she needs other ponies in her life."

    "No ponies, but she has friends now. Two of them are other magic users who have the capacity to keep up with her on her favourite topic, and meaningfully contribute to her work. Like you used to. And a third… And I've really got no idea how they started relating to each other, but they voluntarily spend time in one another's company so I'm calling that three-nil. Grayven-" I hold my right forehoof up to my right ear-. No, wait, it's a little further backthere we go. "-I hear you cry, how did you achieve such a thing where I, with all my experience of and devotion to friendship could not?' And I will gladly-."

    "You brought her into contact with people she considered to be her equals, and their friends. She spoke to them of their shared interests, and the friendship grew from there."

    "And I didn't try and make her something she isn't. Her special talent is magic research. How could you possibly think that you could stop her doing the most important thing in her life and expect her to remain interested in anything you had to say?"

    "I thought that 'magic research' might extend to the magic of friendship-."

    "Hah, you're such a pony!"

    Her expression hardens a little. "Why are you here?"

    "I'm here to provide moral support for Sunset when she ascends. And Luna helped me deal with a problem with my father's magic I was having, and in return I offered to help improve Equestria's military."

    Should I mention that I want to date her? No, no, probably not.

    "Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and give Sunset someone to vent at."
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  30. Pinklestia

    Pinklestia Well worn.

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    Has Sunset realised that Grayven has basically adopted her yet?
     
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