Forging Ahead (GURPS Interstellar Wars/Celestial Forge)

[SemiSaneAuthor]

You know, what happens if a Feudal State, stuck to FTL Couriers with Slow FTL gets FTL Comms?

The Vilani Empire ... How likely would a full scale civil war be, if all those Feudal leaders below The Emperor declare they don't actually want to listen to him in real time? They were quite happy with how The Empire was ruled before that. And while people are saying, "If the Emperor declares Jump, then his citzens will already be jumping," that ... Well, The Vilani are biologically human, right? Humans don't work like that, and an Empire ruled by a far off and distant Emperor suddenly having The Emperor able to properly rule?

This does sound like the recipe for, "Civil War!" in my opinion, if thinking realistically.

 

[Jordisk]

You know, what happens if a Feudal State, stuck to FTL Couriers with Slow FTL gets FTL Comms?

The Vilani Empire ... How likely would a full scale civil war be, if all those Feudal leaders below The Emperor declare they don't actually want to listen to him in real time? They were quite happy with how The Empire was ruled before that. And while people are saying, "If the Emperor declares Jump, then his citzens will already be jumping," that ... Well, The Vilani are biologically human, right? Humans don't work like that, and an Empire ruled by a far off and distant Emperor suddenly having The Emperor able to properly rule?

This does sound like the recipe for, "Civil War!" in my opinion, if thinking realistically.

Click to shrink...

The way their society works, the Emperor can't even say jump. The Emperor is just the head of the council. IIRC, it is something like the Emperor can appoint most of the council, and serves for life. When the emperor dies, the council then votes one of its members into the position. Non-emperor-appointed positions include the heads of the military and such.

Looking it up, the council was made up of the Army Head, Navy Head, three appointees from each of the three major government bureaus, and four people appointed by the Emperor himself. The Emperor can only interact with the 15 council members, not anyone lower on the totem pole. Similarly, the five factions of the council each could only interact with each other through the Emperor and the Council. When the Emperor died, the Council promoted from within itself, while each group would select to replace their councilman.

 

[Blade4]

I dont think they would even comprehend revolting like that. The empire has been around thousands of years by extremely precise social engineering. Hyper conservative both biological and by culture. Deliberate rule by precedent because the government is designed so only the most important issues even have time to be addressed by leadership and the Shadow Emperor. Collectivism that exalts the group and their culture specifically as triumph that must be maintained and anything that harms the whole will see you deposed. Ambition is channeled to strive against each other for power but inside the system. Trying to leave is near inconceivable and they have a well funded police to root out anyone who would want it.

 

[Jordisk]

I dont think they would even comprehend revolting like that. The empire has been around thousands of years by extremely precise social engineering. Hyper conservative both biological and by culture. Deliberate rule by precedent because the government is designed so only the most important issues even have time to be addressed by leadership and the Shadow Emperor. Collectivism that exalts the group and their culture specifically as triumph that must be maintained and anything that harms the whole will see you deposed. Ambition is channeled to strive against each other for power but inside the system. Trying to leave is near inconceivable and they have a well funded police to root out anyone who would want it.

Click to shrink...

I mean, less police than Secret Police, but I agree.

 

[RedX]

I think the big issue is that all of the foundational social engineering that went into the Vilani Empire was based around the technology available at the time- and with the full acknowledgement that sufficiently disruptive future innovations could invalidate that baseline. Hence the carefully cultivated, intentional lack of technological progress.

Frankly, those long-dead sociologists really knocked it out of the park with the multi-millenia durability of the system they set up. Toss a fundamental shift like FTL comms into the mix, though, and all their assumptions go out the window.

The Empire might not collapse, of course- might even strengthen. But what comes out the other side isn't going to be what it started out as.

 

[Blade4]

I mean, less police than Secret Police, but I agree.

Click to shrink...

From what I read its just police? The Travellers wars pdf. If secret police is basically undercover officers rooting out troublemakers and secret society of unhappy dissidents.

 

[SemiSaneAuthor]

Frankly, those long-dead sociologists really knocked it out of the park with the multi-millenia durability of the system they set up.

Click to shrink...

You know it says a lot about my Supspension of Disbelief, when super tech, magical fiat powers that give supertech among other things, the general Sci-Fi tech shown of the setting so far, and Vilani Empire Super-Social Engineering ... And it's the Super-Social Engineering that is giving me trouble. Humans just don't do that, along with not over those time scales, unless you change what it means to be human then I'm going, "HOW!?" as a thing.

 

[Ultim@tePower]

The point is that it's not actually possible.

Click to shrink...

What? What does this mean? Do you mean to says it's impossible for a covert attempt at stealing it? How? Like I'm genuinely curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

This means that Terra will never actual trust the Vilani to stick to their deal. In such a case of course they wouldn't agree to the deal, but that's a very different argument than what you were making before.

Click to shrink...

Yes? So the deal won't happen period no matter how much the Vilani begs. Also yeah the black box may not need replacement parts but the consulate will, it can be for the security or just mundane computers for the consulate.

So what if it's different the point remains the same, if you were on Terran shoes how will you manage the logistics of a consulate all the way on the other side of the Imperium?

 

[namar13766]

When did the Vilani have their First Contact with the Zhodani?

Because while the Villani may be the more immediate threat to the Terrans the Zhodani may prove to be a more existential threat in the end.

 

[wellis]

When did the Vilani have their First Contact with the Zhodani?

Because while the Villani may be the more immediate threat to the Terrans the Zhodani may prove to be a more existential threat in the end.

Click to shrink...

I don't think the Vilani in the current era have made contact with the Zhodani. In fact, IIRC, first contact with the Zhodani happens in 600s of the Third Imperium's calender system (almost 2800 years later from now).

 

[Ultim@tePower]

Hmm I can't quite wrap my head around the dton concept, I know it's displacement ton but what displacement and how does it correlate to actual weight?

 

[wellis]

Hmm I can't quite wrap my head around the dton concept, I know it's displacement ton but what displacement and how does it correlate to actual weight?

Click to shrink...

Displacement ton is volume, not mass. Specifically it is approximately the volume of 14 cubic meters of liquid hydrogen. This amount of liquid hydrogen comes to about 991.2 kg, almost one metric tonne.

So you could say 1 dton is approximately 1 metric ton I guess.

 

[xxfuqqyocouch]

pleasantly surprised to see this alive again. really dig your CF fics.

 

[wellis]

I don't know about remaining a democracy, but since feudalism requires(among other things) relatively slow transport and communication, providing high-speed communication and transport would prevent them from becoming a feudal state.

Click to shrink...

I would argue that one doesn't need to become feudal even with slow transport & communication. For example, the US is a federal republic due to our early history forcing states and regions to be more self-sufficient due to slow travel & communications.

So feudalism isn't necessarily an inevitability. Traveller was just influenced by Golden Age science fiction like say Poul Anderson's Technici History series (the Dominic Flandry portion)

 

[namar13766]

Something about the Vilani feels weird to me, and I think I just figured out why.

The Vilani were described as the intensely hierarchical, rule-bound, bureaucratic, smugly inefficient (dare I say Dilbertese?) imperialists running around Known Space in their really sucky but unfairly successful due to head start and numerical superiority starships and tech, exploiting wildly and stupidly, enforcing cultural assimilation -- and faced with any resistance whatsoever, responding with mass nuclear barrages from orbit and general genocidal/democidal Evulz, saddled with a "caste" based society (whatever that meant; fill in the Evulz to taste) that repressed individuality and genius. In other words (and IMO) a slowly-accrued hodgepodge of all the bugbears and hobgoblins of contemporary Anglo-American (i.e., generally right-anarchist/libertarian-to-conservative, technofetishistic, hacker-and/or-hipster-culture-oriented) SF.

 

[The Unicorn]

I would argue that one doesn't need to become feudal even with slow transport & communication.

Click to shrink...

I really wish at least the basics of formal logic were required in school.
"X is required for Y" does NOT mean all cases of X are Y.
In other words, no one claimed that slow transport and communication inevitably lead to feudalism.

 

[wellis]

I really wish at least the basics of formal logic were required in school.
"X is required for Y" does NOT mean all cases of X are Y.
In other words, no one claimed that slow transport and communication inevitably lead to feudalism.

Click to shrink...

True. But that is often the reason cited for why space feudalism is a thing in settings.

 

[The Unicorn]

True. But that is often the reason cited for why space feudalism is a thing in settings.

Click to shrink...

It makes it possible, yes. Because as I said in my post it's one of the requirements for feudalism to work

 

[Sto Odin]

Turning to a different topic ... well, actually it's related to the ongoing discussion of the Vilani future...

Recall that Zofia still has an open quest, and one that's worth just as many CP as the one she recently completed:

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Objective: Learn how Vilani society and culture really works, and why it came about in the first place
Reward: 1000cp, Hope

Since victory in the next war is now fiat-guaranteed, and other people are working on Terran expansion, it's not just my powergamer maximization reflexes that make me think it's time to start devoting some attention to that quest.

Of course, her current perk list is only mildly helpful toward that end, but she ought to be checking the Forge regularly to see if something more directly helpful pops up.

Getting to actual peaceful coexistence with the Vilani strikes me as a better outcome then even ultimate military victory, and I don't think it's just knowledge of canon that makes me think so.

 

[cliffc999]

Recall that Zofia still has an open quest, and one that's worth just as many CP as the one she recently completed:

Click to shrink...

... would you believe I'd forgotten about that one in the intervening years? Thank you highly for the reminder, that's very helpful.

 

[SemiSaneAuthor]

... would you believe I'd forgotten about that one in the intervening years? Thank you highly for the reminder, that's very helpful.

Click to shrink...

I have to use Ctrl+F on a work I've just completed to Check Lore for the Sequel work I'm writing. (Book 1 had to be split into Book 1 & Book 2.)

This is far more acceptable than me going, "Did I make said blue skinned character the generic Burnt Orange Eyes and Burnt Orange Hair for said species and ... Checked. Past me, you gave her purple eyes and blonde hair? Acceptable, if I'm wondering why you didn't go for said generic part of said species, past me," as a thing, what I actively have to check. [/An actual example of a recent Ctrl+F check on a project I'm working on.]

Cliff, forgetting a Quest Objective from years ago is a very reasonable human lapse. Rather than say, me checking my Story Notes and with Book 1 & Book 2 split in those two books instead of one book, I still haven't gotten to a plot point what I thought I had written into Book 1 and then checked, to find I hadn't done it yet.

(Also, now feeling a little shame at admitting those facts about my writing. But I'm going to be honest about it.)

 

[Blade4]

The hard part is how? She will probably never be let out of Sol without damn good reason and actually going to a Vilani world strongly contradicted. The Vilani themselves carefully curate their books and databanks to what they want their people to know and think. Even actual historical records might not exist even on the homeworld in the shadow Emperor archives that should have built up over generations.

 

[Sto Odin]

Delighted to be of assistance, Cliff.

The hard part is how? She will probably never be let out of Sol [...]

Click to shrink...

Technically she's already been let out of Sol System -- the Skunk Works are in Peraspera system -- but yes, it's hard to imagine the Confederation government letting her go to Vilani space.

It's certainly a challenge: as I said, nothing the Forge has given her yet will be of all that much use to her. (Being a genius is at least a little helpful, I'm sure.) It's a 1000cp quest; it ought to be about as difficult as changing the outcome of the next war.

 

[Blade4]

Delighted to be of assistance, Cliff.



Technically she's already been let out of Sol System -- the Skunk Works are in Peraspera system -- but yes, it's hard to imagine the Confederation government letting her go to Vilani space.

It's certainly a challenge: as I said, nothing the Forge has given her yet will be of all that much use to her. (Being a genius is at least a little helpful, I'm sure.) It's a 1000cp quest; it ought to be about as difficult as changing the outcome of the next war.

Click to shrink...

Well not let out of secure systems and high security areas. Yeah her big problem is she lacks the data or ability to get the data to piece together the Vilani anything. It's not like she can ask for all intel data and reports/journals on the Vilani. I think. They might let her do it just to see what she makes of it. Even the best on earth are not sure what is going on with the Vilani with their entire culture a nested doll of layers and conformity.