With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[TheLunarwolf]

Not that i think its the right answer but Darish Vol was an Old Sith Lord from the era of the first Exiles. Was one of the Lost tribes of Sith... Not that he would have gotten easily to the Milky Way, but earth is canonical to the Star Wars galaxy, so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[Darko]

That'd be, primarily, the Vree. Who are 100% the classic "greys with saucers" aliens (their saucers have a really nasty cannon armament), who, IIRC, literally abducted humans from Earth for the yucks. Needless to say EarthGov finding out about this was less than amused.

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Yep.

There was a funny scene where a human was sueing a Vree because the Vree's ancestor abducted the human's ancestor, so the human wanted the Vree to financially compensate the family.

and that's before we get to Psi Corps. I'm sure Mr. Bester will be very, very interested in Paul...

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They may not be too interested if it doesn't concern telepaths, but if they find out that the ring is thought-based then they may be interested.

 

[Chaoswind]

Would Paul be aware of the table top game of Babylon 5?

If this is the show continuity then those memories should be gone by the rules @Mr Zoat usually uses. However Paul has shown extensive involvement with the tabletop mini figures scene so he may be working off with that data.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Ah damn. Never watched this.

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It's now available for free on YouTube.

Prevent the assassination of Santiago and the rise of Clark, stopping the Earth Alliance Civil War before it can begin would be my first objective.

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Nice idea, but... Clark was Vice President. He had already risen. Preventing the assassination wouldn't change all of the people who enabled it to happen. Remember, in the series they only found evidence that Clark was involved due to time travel data intercepts.

From the description, that's Security Chief Garibaldi. And man, if this Alt!Paul didn't have his memory of the setting flushed, he'd probably be geeking out right now...

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No, Garibaldi is pure European as far as I know. This guy is the figure depicted on the Human Aide card in the Babylon 5 card game. And even early stage Garibaldi would be a lot more sceptical about a claim like that. And have slightly more hair.

They may not be too interested if it doesn't concern telepaths, but if they find out that the ring is thought-based then they may be interested.

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Given that the SI has a bunch of other people in his head and Psi-Corps stated policy for telepaths with dissociative identity disorder is 'kill them', he should be less worried about them being interested in the ring and more about them deciding to tidy him up.

Would Paul be aware of the table top game of Babylon 5?

If this is the show continuity then those memories should be gone by the rules @Mr Zoat usually uses. However Paul has shown extensive involvement with the tabletop mini figures scene so he may be working off with that data.

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I'm not aware of a tabletop game. I think there was a fleet game, but I never played it.

 

[Chaoswind]

I'm not aware of a tabletop game. I think there was a fleet game, but I never played it.

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So this Paul has no info? Ouch.

Second rule, Paul usually spawns near a planet that has something that can be used to charge the orange ring, the norn stone, the ZPM (stargate), malthusian garbage, etc. Even Nazi earth Paul and Tallow dude from Future Batman had local options they failed to pursue, so what exactly would be a compatible charge station for the ring in B5?

I am guessing he woke up in the orbit of a not so random planet, however I am coming with no options from the top of my head that would have a compatible power source and a random shuttle he can just pick up and use.

 

[Darko]

Even Nazi earth Paul and Tallow dude from Future Batman had local options they failed to pursue

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The Nazi Earth green power ring and lantern are being used by the Nazis, so no luck there.

The one that ended up in the DCAU didn't really have any options until Jevek showed up.

I know that Static can recharge rings, but since he's from the DCAU, that version of Paul would have forgotten about him, and there's no reason that he'd later learn about it, either because Stewart didn't put it in his report, or the Keague didn't want him to recharge the ring because of the risks.

so what exactly would be a compatible charge station for the ring in B5?

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I floated the idea that he may have gotten some Soul Hunters spirit stones, and Zoat left a like on that one, so it's most likely that.

 

[Randomly Biased]

I just finished rewatch B5 last week. Legitimately my favorite TV show. Hope you end up writing more of it!

 

[Ardy]

I'm not aware of a tabletop game. I think there was a fleet game, but I never played it.

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Okay but there was that CCG the SI played a while back, I think with the imprisoned amazons since they were the only ones willing to learn the stupid rules before he decided to change them since Babylon V wasn't a thing on earth 16 so he could change them without issue

 

[Chaoswind]

Okay but there was that CCG the SI played a while back, I think with the imprisoned amazons since they were the only ones willing to learn the stupid rules before he decided to change them since Babylon V wasn't a thing on earth 16 so he could change them without issue

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Oh that is true, so this Paul has the setting knowledge from a car game he liked to play or would that be considered show knowledge and also be purged?

The card game doesn't have timeline details, but does touch on the different factions and the struggle between Shadows and Vorlons.

 

[Tzeentch]

"On behalf of the twenty-third century, welcome to Babylon Five."

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YAY! One of my all time favorite Sci-fi settings!

Really hope this side-story is a long one!

 

[Mr Zoat]

The card game doesn't have timeline details, but does touch on the different factions and the struggle between Shadows and Vorlons.

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Technically true, but when was the last time the Shadow War starting in one of your games?

 

[Yog]

The funnier reaction from vorlons and shadows to Paul's ring would be "oh, great, an actual lantern! Maltusians sent someone. Here, these are the crises you get to resolve". Basically, recognising his authority as a lantern and dimping the whole heal of issues on him to resolve, as well as using him to arbitrate disputes.

Becasue both Shadows and Vorlons are civilized species and their wars are not yet at the total stage. They might still honor at least some political agreements from a xouple million years ago.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The funnier reaction from vorlons and shadows to Paul's ring would be "oh, great, an actual lantern! Maltusians sent someone. Here, these are the crises you get to resolve". Basically, recognising his authority as a lantern and dimping the whole heal of issues on him to resolve, as well as using him to arbitrate disputes.

Becasue both Shadows and Vorlons are civilized species and their wars are not yet at the total stage. They might still honor at least some political agreements from a xouple million years ago.

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Given that they stayed behind to guide the younger races while the First Ones left for the rim, I imagine they would frantically pretend that they were getting on just fine, no need to call your boss back.

 

[Vaermina]

Power rings are bullshit.

Yeah, the First Ones may be more impressive than what was seen on the show, but that doesn't somehow mean that power rings will somehow become worthless as you're implying.

Heck, given the sheer power they have, it wouldn't surprise me if the Vorlons and Shadows are cautious around Paul because they think he's an agent of another First One group, and they don't want to get another party involved in their dispute.

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Power Rings aren't bullshit, bullshit is being able to wave your hand and move yourself outside of time or cut off a part of the universe and collapse it into non-existence.

Which are things the technomages can do using their Shadow technology implants.

In concerns to the Vorlons.

The Core
The core of the Vorlon is the physical part of the Vorlon;
essentially, it is the Vorlon's body, although the term is of little
relevance. When seen, it resembles a being of glowing light,
with tentacles and surrounded by a fiery corona of energy.
Before the Vorlons transcended base matter and became
beings of energy, this core was an organic body (the product
of millions of years of evolution and genetic engineering, but
a recognisable body nonetheless).

The core is a crystalline structure, which contains the
intrusion of the Vorlon's soul into realspace. The core is
composed of four distinct sections. Firstly, there are external
manipulating tentacles, which are each composed of a siliconcarbide
gel, laced with a nanometre-scale grid of sensors and
energy effectors. Each of these tentacles is strong enough to
tear through the hull armour of a Sharlin-class warship, but
is also precise and gentle enough to manipulate brain tissue
without causing injury. For the majority of Vorlons, these
tentacles – and the entire core body – are largely redundant,
as few Vorlons have needed to manipulate matter directly for
millions of years.

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As a note, every single Vorlon is a p15 telepath, there are no assumptions, they will know everything about him the moment they meet.

I'm not aware of a tabletop game. I think there was a fleet game, but I never played it.

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Someone tell Mr Zoat to look up Wars of the Ancients and Darkness and Light, the Vorlon and Shadows fact book from the B5wars Vault.

 

[Darko]

Power Rings aren't bullshit, bullshit is being able to wave your hand and move yourself outside of time or cut off a part of the universe and collapse it into non-existence.

Which are things the technomages can do using their Shadow technology implants

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Yeah and guess what?

Power rings are able to do similar things and on a massive scale.

As a note, every single Vorlon is a p15 telepath, there are no assumptions, they will know everything about him the moment they meet

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Did you forget about the other voices that were shown?

Of course you did.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the Ralgans, who transcended, can protect him from that.

 

[Vaermina]

The funnier reaction from vorlons and shadows to Paul's ring would be "oh, great, an actual lantern! Maltusians sent someone. Here, these are the crises you get to resolve". Basically, recognising his authority as a lantern and dimping the whole heal of issues on him to resolve, as well as using him to arbitrate disputes.

Becasue both Shadows and Vorlons are civilized species and their wars are not yet at the total stage. They might still honor at least some political agreements from a xouple million years ago.

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Almost missed this, but I can give an answer as the rules of the Shadows and Vorlons are laid out in text in Darkness and Light.

The Rules Of Engagement

The Vorlons insisted on the rules being thoroughly and comprehensively defined. The Shadows chafed under any restrictions.
The resulting compromise was deeply flawed and ultimately doomed, but it did keep the two sides from destroying each
other and life in this galaxy.

Firstly, direct attacks on each other's worlds were forbidden. Their respective homeworlds were inviolate, as were any long established
colonies.

Secondly, direct attacks on the other race were forbidden. This only applied to campaigns of genocide, such as lethal
engineered viruses, psychic bombs and so on. Both Vorlons and Shadows would have to survive to the end of the Vigil. This
rule did not apply to individuals from either race, only to the race as a whole.

Thirdly, the young races had to have free will. It was within the power of both Vorlons and Shadows to control the Younger
Races utterly, either through sheer force of arms or by genetic tinkering to implant obedience compulsions. However, not
only would this ruin the development of the races they were supposed to guide, it would also devalue the clash of ideologies
between Vorlons and Shadows.

Fourthly, only the Shadows and Vorlons were allowed have direct contact with the Younger Races. While this had been
informally agreed upon earlier, it was now enshrined in the agreement between the two guardians. It was this clause that
caused the two to attack a race known as the Darsha 10,000 years after the start of the Vigil, and which allows the Vorlons
to break the rules of engagement when Lorien made contact with Sheridan.

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So suggesting the Maltusians sent him would have the exact opposite effect and cause both the Vorlons and Shadows to take off the kid gloves and utterly destroy him for being a walking violation of their Rules of Engagement.

Yeah and guess what?

Power rings are able to do similar things and on a massive scale.

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I'll wait while you show Zoat power rings doing what was described without creating a construct of some other machine.

Did you forget about the other voices that were shown?

Of course you did.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the Ralgans, who transcended, can protect him from that.

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I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you don't realize that's the equivalent of having a human baby protect someone from a guy driving around in a main battle tank.

I'm also going to guess that you don't realize that the Vorlons and Shadows aren't objectively rational actors.

Someone keeping a Vorlon out of their mind won't get a "I guess that's just the way it is", they will get their mind crushed because the Vorlon will take that as an affront to it's pride and force through the block. In fact, that's literally what we saw happen in canon the one time someone tried. And that was with Lita, the Vorlon's telepathic WMD.

 

[Yog]

So suggesting the Maltusians sent him would have the exact opposite effect and cause both the Vorlons and Shadows to take off the kid gloves and utterly destroy him for being a walking violation of their Rules of Engagement.

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By strict reading of the Rules, you are wrong. Paul is not from this galaxy or, indeed, universe. Thus, contacting him doesn't violate the Rules at all. And he is a member of one of the young races, thus he is allowed to contact them with no limitations. It's a loophole. It's a very obvious loophole exploitation. A blatant "yes, we are exploiting rules as written. Do you really eant to see this escalate further?" challenge.

Politically this can easily be read as Maltusians sending an informal notice that things are wrong, and that they are warning Vorlons and Shadows that they (Maltusians) are ready to interfere.

Edit: durther political analaysis of Paul being an orange lantern instead of a green one would suggest that maltusians are warning vorlons over shadows, and would support shadows if need be, since orange lanterns are closer to shadow ideology.

Basically, since B5 is very much a political drama, I expect Paul's appearance to be read as a multilayered deniable political message between First One factions by the active factions.

Edit2: and Paul not being from this universe would be noticeable to First Ones due to him not having a soul.

 

[Vaermina]

By strict reading of the Rules, you are wrong. Paul is not from this galaxy or, indeed, universe. Thus, contacting him doesn't violate the Rules at all. And he is a member of one of the young races, thus he is allowed to contact them with no limitations. It's a loophole. It's a very obvious loophole exploitation. A blatant "yes, we are exploiting rules as written. Do you really eant to see this escalate further?" challenge.

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A human from another universe is still a human, a first one from another universe is still a first one, the Vorlon's and Shadow's are monomaniacal when it comes to issues surrounding their duty.

They can't not be, to quote one of the sections on First One psychology.

The other side of the Vorlon personality is pride. To a degree,
each of the First Ones has insane hubris as a racial trait – it is
rare for a race to find a reason for living (the key to a successful
transition to a Fourth Age) and not be utterly convinced
that its way is superior to all other paths in existence. The
Vorlons take pride in their utter commitment to order, but
the Shadows are – they must be – equally committed to
the cause of chaos, as the Walkers are to exploration, the
Mindriders to communication and so on. Every First One
race is monomaniacal on some topic.

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[Darko]

So suggesting the Maltusians sent him would have the exact opposite effect and cause both the Vorlons and Shadows to take off the kid gloves and utterly destroy him for being a walking violation of their Rules of Engagement

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Unless they, you know, try to take a more cautious approach since they don't know what the Maltusian, or whoever gave Paul a hyper-advanced piece of tech, are doing, and they don't want to potentially piss off an unknown power.

I'll wait while you show Zoat power rings doing what was described without creating a construct of some other machine

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And that's different to what techno-mages do, how?

Techno-mages use technological implants.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you don't realize that's the equivalent of having a human baby protect someone from a guy driving around in a main battle tank.

I'm also going to guess that you don't realize that the Vorlons and Shadows aren't objectively rational actors.

Someone keeping a Vorlon out of their mind won't get a "I guess that's just the way it is", they will get their mind crushed because the Vorlon will take that as an affront to it's pride and force through the block. In fact, that's literally what we saw happen in canon the one time someone tried. And that was with Lita, the Vorlon's telepathic WMD

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I'm going to take a wild guess and say that we've never seen the Vorlons take on a few thousand to a few billion transcendent beings.

 

[Vaermina]

Unless they, you know, try to take a more cautious approach since they don't know what the Maltusian, or whoever gave Paul a hyper-advanced piece of tech, are doing, and they don't want to potentially piss off an unknown power.

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The Vorlons and Shadows are literally incapable of working that way.

As I pointed out, they are monomaniacal.

And that's different to what techno-mages do, how?

Techno-mages use technological implants.

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So no, you can't.

We're comparing the direct capabilities of one technology vs another, and Technomage implants can do everything Zoat power ring can do, and a lot more besides that. So you're argument that "power rings are bullshit" falls flat in the face of the Vorlons and Shadows having bigger bullshit. Especially when argument here boils down to "Power Rings can make stuff", well yes, so can technomages, their implants have energy effectors and nanotech generation.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that we've never seen the Vorlons take on a few thousand to a few billion transcendent beings.

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Actually we have, the Xu-Ha purge, and the Third Space War where the Vorlons fought beings a lot more powerful then a few members of a newly transcended second age species.

 

[Darko]

The Vorlons and Shadows are literally incapable of working that way.

As I pointed out, they are monomaniacal

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Except there are instances of them abandoning their monomaniacal nature.

Kosh actually helping them and when they left instead of continuing their ancient struggle.

So no, you can't.

We're comparing the direct capabilities of one technology vs another, and Technomage implants can do everything Zoat power ring can do, and a lot more besides that. So you're argument that "power rings are bullshit" falls flat in the face of the Vorlons and Shadows having bigger bullshit. Especially when argument here boils down to "Power Rings can make stuff", well yes, so can technomages, their implants have energy effectors and nanotech generation

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Yeah, you're still not really convincing me that techno-mages can rival a power ring.

We've seen power rings be able to casually destroy warships like they're nothing just a few episodes ago. I kinda doubt techno-mages can casually do that, because if they could then a lot of events in both the books and other source material wouldn't have happened.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of techno-mages are leaving.

Actually we have, the Xu-Ha purge, and the Third Space War where the Vorlons fought beings a lot more powerful then a few members of a newly transcended second age species

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The Xu-Ha required the help of the other First Ones to defeat, and the Vorlons had the advantage against the Thirdspace aliens because they understood the technology that was used to allow them to enter the universe, so they could shut it off.