With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Comic superman much less of a chance compared to WTR superman, the SI has a kinetic belt integrated into his armor, meaning that being physically stronger than young justice superman is of absolutely no benefit, and unlike WTR Superman comic Superman carries neither a radiation shield nor a spell eater making him vulnerable against various attacks the SI can easily use.

 

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with them, or the same city, and I'd be nervous about being on the same planet (though that is due to far more than the Sivanas, themselves), but they're fun to read about.

 

Good to see grayven covering his ass if anything goes wrong.

 

Gotta love that last line. Don't want to temp murphy into action

 

A solid reminder of what the Lords did to the dark side of the New Gods...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Ah, that niggling doubt. Always pays to confirm suspicions.

So she's becoming a new god of Chief Mooks. Lovely.

Ah, she felt that? Interesting.
Correction: 'It seems'

Heh. He really should look into that. OL has quite a jump on that quest-line.

Still thinking he's the New god of Conquest, I see. Can't wait to see when he realises his true nature.

That's a 'no', then. Or at least a 'Not Now'.

He'd rather work things out in back-rooms, over a stiff drink, eh?

Ego the size of a planet...

Ah, Garth Ennis. One of the weirder, wilder writers of the Nineties, and still at it today.

Heh. He'd rather people come to their own conclusions, I see.

Taking it slowly. Good idea.

One thing Grayven has going over OL: A much larger and closer in-group. The Team is fine, but he needs more than friends...

There's a lot about Love she has to learn...
Correction: 'on Zamaron'

And useful to have another pair of eyes, one not caught up in the plans.

Heh. Bet that's making waves in their society.

Good to see that much passion in her.

Trained in many techniques, I expect?

And I bet others are starting to think along similar lines back there.

Ah, male egos. So easily bruised.

Aw, you got Murphy all excited and then bam, letdown.

Well, all domestic and pleasant. A good contrast to OL's heist Training exercise planning...

Godspeech:

 

And of course the whole bit with your entire currently claimed existence being antithetical to Truth.

 

Thank you, corrected.

 

Could a society handle a physical goddess of truth?

Absolute lies would destroy a society. There needs to be a basic measure of trust to allow any group to function.

But so would absolute truths. People don't fit perfectly together. Constantly telling the absolute truth would lead to permanent conflict, since it would allow all competing interests to compete openly.

Society needs a measure of both to be successful.

 

Is it? You can be truthful and still be a conquer you just don't lie about what you are doing. The truth isn't always good and just.

 

Hey, just because he isn’t Grayven, son of Darkseid and God of Conquest, doesn’t means he’s not Grayven, God of Conquest.

It’s not a total lie, is what I’m saying

 

Interesting question though. At what point does it stop becoming a lie and becomes the truth? When do you become the mask you wear?

 

Debatable.

 

Except he's not actually Grayven.

This is Truth with a capital T.

Attempting to rules lawyer a lie into being true will get you nowhere with it.

 

Well, he's certainly a "Grayven, the god of Conquest".

 

I love the phrase "deciding who gets thugged" and would like to see it appear in other works.

 

While I doubt society would survive full honesty 100% of the time in all situations. Having the ability to reliably and non-violently compel honesty under specific conditions would be very valuable in maintaining a civilization, courts, senates, and contract negotiations for example.

 

At this point, he is A Grayven in that his name is legally Grayven and he possesses memories that paul doesn't, of growing up on apokalypse that he mentioned in stars crossed (which was the arc that had him become more Grayven than paul) and to head off the idea that he's merely lying, why would he lie to the justice lords? they need his help even if he wasn't actually Grayven.

I mean at this point he kinda is to the point where Grayven 16 acknowledges he's not a fake.

 

I've been convinced for some time, that Grayven's New God nature is not Conquest, as he claims and believes. Not Conquest by Force of Arms, more specifically.
Rather, he seems to exemplify Conquest as Acquisition. Nearly everything we see him do results in him gaining something, whether it be property, power or followers. The few times he suffers a setback, he gains experience and perspective. Unlike the true Grayven, who rules by fear and power, Grayven the Renegade gains his follower's loyalty by caring about them as people, by helping them solve their own problems.
Certainly, it reflects the Orange Light that played a part in his early development far more than the Yellow of Fear.

...Or I could be seeing things that aren't there. I don't expect Mr Zoat to say one way or the other. Not until it matters in-universe. Heck, perhaps this realisation is why he ends up screaming at the Source Wall.

 

Missing word? Something like 'decided'?

---

Self-restraint, that important characteristic of a ruler. Good to see Grayven exercising it...

 

Thank you, corrected.

 

Absolute truth would not destroy a society. All sides would either mesh in non-competitive viewpoints, or compete openly, which is a far better alternative to competing beyond closed doors. Social bonds are possible with people you don’t agree with, even if they’re loud about their opinions, so compromise would eventually happen.

 

Namesake means the person you're named after... so the kid is Grayven Sr.?

Compromise... or war, depending on how tolerant the people are. It could hypothetically work, but it would require some reengineering of human nature to pull off.

"Never knowingly speak a falsehood" is a lot more plausible than "absolute truth." That still allows for secrets and for holding your tongue when the truth would do more harm than good.

 

Anti-Life is not anti-truth, is more like not 100% honest.

 

Look at internet arguments. People saying what they truly think leads to a lot of conflict and little compromise.

Or any social gathering. Those depend to a large part on people lying that past little hurts don't matter anymore.

And if you only socialise with people you agree with, you get echo chambers.

I think the only viable alternative, if you have no option but to say the absolute truth, is to say nothing.

 

So....is he going to stop doing this and be open about it for every other non-New God in his employ? Most notably Blackfire...

(I only just realized that the events of Jiggity Jig also serve a narrative function to distinguish the Blackfires in terms of their social relationships to versions of the SI, so well done with that impressive balancing act, as always.)

I hope I'm not the only one who thought for a second that Ghi'ata was somehow talking to Captain Philippus here, given that (a version of) Diana was around and with the reference to Amazons. But I don't believe the state of Philippus/Hippolyta has changed in either world (now THAT would be a good long-term project for Ghi'ata to work on, if possible).

 

Would that really be so bad? That’s a thing you’re supposed to teach kids: “if you can’t say something positive, don’t say anything at all”.
I may be speaking from ignorance, but social gatherings depend less on lying and more on moving past the little hurts and being able to work with the people who hurt you for whatever goal you want to achieve.
But the thing with the internet is that there is no immediate need for compromise. Most Internet conversations don’t and shouldn’t matter except as places to anonymously vent grievances. Brilliant ideas don’t really tend to come out of them. It’s one of the things that in my opinion led to there being so much division in politics. Remember when Democrats and Republicans could put aside differences and work together? That was before the internet really became a massive thing. Before each party became it’s own echo chamber due to people yelling at it through the internet.

 

For the last time... This is Truth with a capital T.

There is no rules lawyering, or "it's true if you squint really hard and tilt your head a bit", or even "I'm going to leave out these rather important bits", it's "this is exactly it".

 

The Truth thing jogged my memory.

Telepathic Blue Skinned Space Elves

Basically, as a telepathic race they speak incredibly bluntly, because any other telepath can 'hear' a lie 'spoken' with their form of communication. A Falsehood doesn't have the same all encompassing levels of detail that a factual conversation would carry, and any modifications stand out from the backdrop like crayon drawings on a photograph.

Thus they can't get away with the little white lies that smooth conversations between each other. Hence that they've went and murdered each other often enough over stupid things that they had to invent a whole caste system with a dedicated interpreter to handle speaking with other groups and races that don't share their abilities.

So, yes you could have a honest and open society, so long as you have a strong control scheme to keep folks from acting out on their opinions violently.

 

Tell me, if I were to show you two images of the Mona Lisa, with one being the original made by Leonardo da Vinci, and one being a copy made by a dedicated and talented artist, would you be able to tell the difference? The same concept applies here.

Paul wasn't always Grayven, yes. But thanks to the surgery his Father Box did on his soul, he mantled Grayven, and became him. What was once a lie is now a truth. He is Grayven enough for Darkseid himself to acknowledge him as worthy enough to bear the name--provided he can overcome the original.

If it looks like a Grayven, sounds like a Grayven, walks like a Grayven, well. Must be a Grayven.

Only difference is, this Grayven is the superior model in comparison to the original.