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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. B.B. Rain

    B.B. Rain I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    You forgot the closing quotation mark for this sentence.
     
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  2. Slayer Anderson

    Slayer Anderson Orthodox Heretic

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    Objectively speaking, there are three reasons to imprison an individual for committing crimes against someone else, including the state.

    The first is to keep the remainder of society safe by removing elements perceived as dangerous from the common pool of humanity so that they cannot continue with their crimes and hurt more people/property/etc...

    The second is punishment. It sets a good behavioral precedent to see someone who has done something society perceives as 'wrong' having liberties taken away from them and serves as a warning to others that the same might befall them if they choose to transgress against the law. (A secondary consideration on this point is retributive punishment as opposed to utilitarian punishment, which is designed to insure the specific individual, as opposed to the society at large, knows the consequences of committing another crime.)

    The third is rehabilitation. Taking someone who commits a crime and turning them into someone who does not commit crimes by rehabilitating them returns people who would otherwise be disruptive to society back into the pool of constructive citizens.



    Following this, if Sivana wants to retain his freedoms in the long term and reestablish his relationship as well as sustain his children's freedoms, both the first and third must be sustained as conditions for retaining all of the primary desires he would attain by receiving his pardons. Objectively speaking, attempting to punish Sivana further without any proven ability to contain him or remove him from society at large is counterproductive, as it raises his chances of recidivism, which would kill more people and prevent his rehabilitation. The primary danger of this approach is that someone might believe themselves capable of following in his footsteps, proving themselves useful, and also receiving a pardon for his crimes. The fact that they're getting access to all of Sivana's weapons and research, though, gives nations a much greater ability to prevent those who might attempt to do just that. So...

    ...two out of three ain't bad?


    All of this is still shit-tier reasoning for someone who lost a loved one and has to watch the mad man who murdered them get off free of all charges.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  3. Fellow

    Fellow Know what you're doing yet?

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    Kinda looks like fiend armour.

    It's even got that tire pauldron thing on his right shoulder.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  4. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    No... It really isn't that hard to get...

    Pretty much every government on Earth has excused more for less then Sivana is offering.
     
  5. Fellow

    Fellow Know what you're doing yet?

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    Clones are people too! I'm fairly sure people would consider Rex to be a person despite being one of thousands of clones. At least in the fandom they would. Not sure if in-universe they considered them people. Bad example, but Roy and his clone are two separate people in this story!
     
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  6. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    The Jedi, well most of them, considered the clones to be people.
     
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  7. Fellow

    Fellow Know what you're doing yet?

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    All the more sad then about 66
     
  8. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    I wonder if he'll notice that the President may be a robotic doppelganger? Because that was a plot point the Renegade dealt with some time earlier. :confused: Or was that on Justice Lords Earth? The joy of long, long runners.

    It's amusing that Renegade and Paragon mirror each other in so many ways. One is a family man bachelor, the other's dating but with no plans for kids. One is close to their League, the other is.. less so. At least both are on good terms with their Teams... One refuses to modify himself for relatively odd reasons, the other hit the power-up button with his face repeatedly... And they support opposing Presidential Candidates.

    :rolleyes: To be honest, if you actually went by those names, it would probably feel even sillier. I suppose in some translations you technically would be.

    I'm guessing this is tied to Sivana's request, isn't it? To be fair, I don't see much opposition to whatever he asks just for the chance to unlock the toy cabinet of Earth Bullshit Science.

    Magog! Long time no see, Mr Cable-lookalike. Well, i suppose he doesn't look like that... Yet.

    <Points to eyes, then to Father Time> Honestly, OL, I'm amazed the name didn't jog some memory of crazy shit. Just being here is a worry. Is SHADE really that powerful, or is it because of the Sheeda thing? Is Adam Frankenstein lurking somewhere, or is he off hunting Sheeda?

    A glance that some of the sharper minds around the table will have picked up on. I wonder how that'll play.

    ...Doesn't do things by halves, does ol' Tad? I suppose subtlety is not a Sivana family watchword...

    Hopefully not too large or detailed. That could be a lot of reading if Thaffeus Senior has been... Inspired.

    And there's the number one opponent to convince. I doubt he's going to like relying on 'a crackpot inventor', much less a known murderer.

    ...Huh. That doesn't sound all that bad. I mean, if OL makes the point clear that if Horne signs off on it, Sivana's tech cloud end this conflict in days, if not hours, it might be an easy choice to make. No doubt it won't be that easy.

    A reminder: End the conflict in days, if not hours, General.

    That's going to be a sticking point, isn't it?

    ...Okay, not quite as easy. Though Sivana hasn't committed many crimes outside US jurisdiction has he? I suspect most diplomats would simply go, "He can end this fight quickly? We can sign off on a pardon, no problems!"

    No doubt booby-trapped to prevent any curious engineers working with them from poking around. Sivana may be a little crazy, but he is not stupid.

    Thinking of launching a little military operation to capture him, General? That could be tough.

    I mean, it's not like Sivana's the only person he's working to reform...

    Something which I bet many of them didn't know about. And the fact it didn't happen on Earth is probably a mitigating factor.

    I don't doubt they had agents everywhere. Thaddeus Senior did say he's been busy dealing with infiltrators and the like.

    Probably as soon as he takes receipt of the pardons. Do not underestimate the power of SCIENCE!

    And this is where ignoring the plot threads to raise relationship values with him kicks you in the ass.

    To be fair, he can whistle up that data instantly, as soon as he wants to. Power Rings are Awesome. But that's not what he means, is it now?

    Yeah, I don't doubt they have a lot of vengeful thoughts towards the man. And no amount of 'But he's useful to the government' will lessen that.

    Hopefully he agrees. There's a lot of lives hanging in the balance. And even if he has a moral opposition to Sivana going unpunished, he can't overlook that fact... A big, sticky ol' moral quagmire for him.

    Ultimately, Sivana's name isn't too widely known to the public except as a supervillian with a bodycount. If the full tally of his bodycount gets mooted about, this would hurt his re-election chances a lot.

    Well, this is going to trigger a few debates, both in-story and out. Let's hope they stay civil. As for in-universe, I have to wonder just how widely known Dr. Sivana Senior is? I mean, Fawcett City, sure, he's probably a big name there. Elsewhere, though? I suspect if this goes public, some people will call for the pardon, just on the fact he claims to be able to drive off the Sheeda... On the other hand... G. Gordon Godfrey and people like him are going to have lots of anti-superhuman rhetorical ammunition.



    "He's a mass murderer."
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  9. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    A technorganic construct he controls as an aspect of his Old God powers, according to the Magog series.

    Which also includes- Flight, limited invulnerability, adrenaline based enhanced strength and stamina, and optical enhancements.

    And of course plasma blasts through his staff.

    I think without Gog finishing his transformation he's just got the plasma bolts here, unless someone whose read that JSA run would care to contradict my assumption?
     
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  10. Cherico

    Cherico Connoisseur.

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    The survival of the human race and civilization is at stake, countries have pardoned mass murderers for less.
     
  11. Ardy

    Ardy I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    #2 is actually 2 separate ones, utilitarian punishment (show what happens to people who break the rules to prevent others from doing so) and retributive punishment (you are punished for doing a bad thing). This is making me twitch because I'm currently pulling my very first all-nighter ever for my 1L year and we've gone over this in criminal law a lot.
     
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  12. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    No, I think those are fine.
    Thank you, corrected.
     
  13. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    I know. Then there’s retribution, debt to society, etc. We did it in law.

    There are upwards of 170 countries, and as it is they rarely agree unanimously on anything, ever, and this is as controversial as it gets. You’d have much better luck trying help Sisyphus with his rock.

    Plus, people are stupid.
     
  14. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Those Nazi scientists that helped with the moon landing come to mind.

    Operation Paperclip, what a ride.
     
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  15. AidanMorgan

    AidanMorgan Essentially Overworked

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    "Water isn't a human right" keeps playing on loop in my head.
     
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  16. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I think it happened in both the Earth 50 episode and in the renegade side.

    Renegade is also dating someone, so he's not a bachelor.

    Frankenstein may be still on ice, at least I think Zoat mentioned that once.

    I once asked Zoat why the Sivana children just don't wok for China and he replied because they committed crimes there and the Chinese didn't want to try their chance at controlling them, so that could mean hat their father is also a criminal there.

    He did tell those video game developers about his trip to Vgea, but I doubt the military paid much attention to that.

    With Scott and Barda being on Earth he may not show up for fear of being recognized, but he may try to influence some news reporter to do what he did in canon, or just disguise himself.
     
  17. Slayer Anderson

    Slayer Anderson Orthodox Heretic

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    My father taught law and lectured me on these points, so yeah, I know the specifics, but I didn't feel like giving a full thesis-level post and decided they can be lumped together for the purposes of discussing here and now. Also, from a personal standpoint, I disagree with retributive punishment as a foundational element for jailing individuals.

    If you feel like this subject needs a better summary than I've given and want to include more technical details, feel free to do so.

    Edit: For the sake of completion, I went back and added a note about retributive punishment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  18. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    Most of those 170 countries are of the singular leader type.

    And of those that aren't, most are like the US in that they have provisions for a singular leader to make unilateral decisions in the case of national emergencies.
     
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  19. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    They weren't pardoned.

    In fact one Operation Paperclip scientist was extradited to Germany to stand trial. He was acquitted because of lack of evidence.
     
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  20. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    If only they'd treated them like they did.
    By Sivana standards, that was.
    To be fair to Horne, he doesn't care about that.
    He's not a household name across the world, but then neither was Napier until then Injustice League thing.
    Thank you, corrected.
     
  21. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    ...And? What does that have to do with anything? That is meant for swift an decisive executive decisions in times of crisis - which this is, no doubt - but there stance will generally reflect that of their government, given by your arguments, most of them are their government, and that’s generally true even for those that aren’t.

    On top of this, it does nothing to change international relations and politics, and the huge potential for shitstorms.
     
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  22. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Didn't know this.

    Still pardoning Sivana wouldn't be the first time the U. S. government has had some very bad people working for them.
     
  23. Senevri

    Senevri Not too sore, are you?

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    One down, a few more hundred to go... Although I suspect most countries actually don't have a, what, a warrant for Sivana's arrest. So maybe just a few dozen more...
     
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  24. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    Come now... There’s no need to cast doubt on how prolific the good doctor has been. Why must you insult his work so?
     
  25. Senevri

    Senevri Not too sore, are you?

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    And forbade cloning.
    It's not really cloning if you mix the DNA a little bit.
    I wonder how that worked? Was it like, every living kryptonian had to have a unique genetic sequence? Could you have technically cloned someone's great-grandpa? OTOH, they had genetic records...I wonder if a person's gene sequence was considered something like a social security ID?
     
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  26. moralrelativity

    moralrelativity Recovering pendant.

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    *gags* Hopefully we won't see much of that on screen.
     
  27. Senevri

    Senevri Not too sore, are you?

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    I never heard him doing anything to Estonia.... and even if he did do something truly global, I doubt all countries bothered to charge him with something. Some countries might not have even existed at the time.

    Frankly, Sivana should just have built an auto-pardoning machine if that was his goal.
     
  28. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    Um... I agree with all of these but this one. Both OL and Gray are (relatively) close to the Team [you could argue that Gray's not spending time with the Team but considering that most of them are New Gods you can't say he's any less invested than OL - "I don't make friends I make investments." They are all part of his... I wanna say 'Peerage' but that's Highschool DxD talking. They are all tied to him on a conceptual level because he made them into New Gods.] and... 'having working relationship' with the League at best?

    I guess OL's nominally part of the Team and equally nominally taking orders from the League but... that's because he's willing to humour them more than anything else.

    :D This. So much this. You hit the nail on the head.
     
  29. Ardy

    Ardy I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I would but I have a paper to write and I think the mods would frown upon me just posting the whole thing here and asking you all to check for typos... probably.

    Man, I wish I had a power ring to check my grammar.
     
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  30. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    Hmm, yes. Good point, I've modified that part of the statement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
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