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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Idkusername said:
Ooh, boy. Here come the salty moral debates.
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Objectively speaking, there are three reasons to imprison an individual for committing crimes against someone else, including the state.

The first is to keep the remainder of society safe by removing elements perceived as dangerous from the common pool of humanity so that they cannot continue with their crimes and hurt more people/property/etc...

The second is punishment. It sets a good behavioral precedent to see someone who has done something society perceives as 'wrong' having liberties taken away from them and serves as a warning to others that the same might befall them if they choose to transgress against the law. (A secondary consideration on this point is retributive punishment as opposed to utilitarian punishment, which is designed to insure the specific individual, as opposed to the society at large, knows the consequences of committing another crime.)

The third is rehabilitation. Taking someone who commits a crime and turning them into someone who does not commit crimes by rehabilitating them returns people who would otherwise be disruptive to society back into the pool of constructive citizens.



Following this, if Sivana wants to retain his freedoms in the long term and reestablish his relationship as well as sustain his children's freedoms, both the first and third must be sustained as conditions for retaining all of the primary desires he would attain by receiving his pardons. Objectively speaking, attempting to punish Sivana further without any proven ability to contain him or remove him from society at large is counterproductive, as it raises his chances of recidivism, which would kill more people and prevent his rehabilitation. The primary danger of this approach is that someone might believe themselves capable of following in his footsteps, proving themselves useful, and also receiving a pardon for his crimes. The fact that they're getting access to all of Sivana's weapons and research, though, gives nations a much greater ability to prevent those who might attempt to do just that. So...

...two out of three ain't bad?


All of this is still shit-tier reasoning for someone who lost a loved one and has to watch the mad man who murdered them get off free of all charges.
 
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DeathlessProficiency said:
For a lot of those six figures, it's really just that he's killed one person a LOT of times.

Remember kids, clones aren't real people.

Sincerely,
Krypton
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Clones are people too! I'm fairly sure people would consider Rex to be a person despite being one of thousands of clones. At least in the fandom they would. Not sure if in-universe they considered them people. Bad example, but Roy and his clone are two separate people in this story!
 
Fellow said:
Clones are people too! I'm fairly sure people would consider Rex to be a person despite being one of thousands of clones. At least in the fandom they would. Not sure if in-universe they considered them people. Bad example, but Roy and his clone are people in this story!
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The Jedi, well most of them, considered the clones to be people.
 
Mr Zoat said:
25th June 2012
10:33 GMT -5

I haven't really met President Jonathan Horne before.
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I wonder if he'll notice that the President may be a robotic doppelganger? Because that was a plot point the Renegade dealt with some time earlier. :confused: Or was that on Justice Lords Earth? The joy of long, long runners.

Oh, we spoke very briefly at the ceremony marking the signing into law of the Sophoncy Recognition Act, but… I can't vote in American elections, I can't be arrested and I work at a job that's been treated as being 'outside' of the law for the past seventy years. I know his Republican challenger Senator Henry Knight rather better, and… Friendly as he's being, empathic vision shows exactly how little he actually cares about any of the causes he claims to champion moment to moment. Jonathan Horne is a good deal more genuine, but…
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It's amusing that Renegade and Paragon mirror each other in so many ways. One is a family man bachelor, the other's dating but with no plans for kids. One is close to their League, the other is.. less so. At least both are on good terms with their Teams... One refuses to modify himself for relatively odd reasons, the other hit the power-up button with his face repeatedly... And they support opposing Presidential Candidates.

If I was American? I'd be voting Ron.

Still, despite the country being in the middle of a low-intensity war on its home territory, he was willing to meet with Crazy-Orange-Snake Man and Dresses-Like-a-Bat Man at very short notice. Which is just as well, because I'm going to have to arrange a lot of these meetings-
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:rolleyes: To be honest, if you actually went by those names, it would probably feel even sillier. I suppose in some translations you technically would be.

"Batman? Orange Lantern? The President will see you now.

-today.
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I'm guessing this is tied to Sivana's request, isn't it? To be fair, I don't see much opposition to whatever he asks just for the chance to unlock the toy cabinet of Earth Bullshit Science.

We follow the presidential aide into one of bunker's meeting rooms, and I note with approval that in addition to the Secret Service agents on duty there are also a couple of Atlantean wizards and… Lance Corporal Reid, staff in hand. I suppose that's about as covered as they can get, though to be honest 'Specialist Lance' isn't all that threatening without his god-tier upgrade.
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Magog! Long time no see, Mr Cable-lookalike. Well, i suppose he doesn't look like that... Yet.

President Horne is sitting at a table with… Father Time, General Lane and a few politicians whose names and faces flicker through my mind as my rings fill me in. I'm… Having trouble reading Father Time, but the emotions of everyone else appear to be in line with what I'd expect from serious, disciplined professionals.

Batman walks to the end of the table opposite the president and remains standing, so I follow his lead and fall in next to him. Horne nods politely.
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<Points to eyes, then to Father Time> Honestly, OL, I'm amazed the name didn't jog some memory of crazy shit. Just being here is a worry. Is SHADE really that powerful, or is it because of the Sheeda thing? Is Adam Frankenstein lurking somewhere, or is he off hunting Sheeda?

"Gentlemen. I'm sorry if things are a little rushed, but I'm sure we're all very busy right now. You said this was urgent?"

Batman glances at me, and I take that as my cue.
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A glance that some of the sharper minds around the table will have picked up on. I wonder how that'll play.

"Yes, Mister President. As quickly as I can, last year I was invited by Doctor Beautia Sivana to her annual family gathering. While there I met Doctor Thaddeus Bodog Sivana-"

A couple of Cabinet Secretaries twitch. I think he once tried to use one of them as a nuclear suicide bomber.
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...Doesn't do things by halves, does ol' Tad? I suppose subtlety is not a Sivana family watchword...

"-and heard him decide to redirect his efforts from fighting superheroes to fighting the Sheeda. I've been keeping tabs on him since, and he's done more or less what he said he was going to. His younger children Thaddeus Sivana Junior and Georgia Sivana have been doing the same. He's given me records of the actions he's taken in this regard and I've…"

I take paper copies of the summaries out of subspace and deposit them in front of them.
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Hopefully not too large or detailed. That could be a lot of reading if Thaffeus Senior has been... Inspired.

"Confirmed these as best I can. He's been clear with me, however, that he's not trying to beat the Sheeda so much as see how much of an intellectual challenge they can present him with. When I remonstrated with him on that point he said that he was willing to go on the offensive, but that he'd want something in return."

General Lane's eyes narrow.
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And there's the number one opponent to convince. I doubt he's going to like relying on 'a crackpot inventor', much less a known murderer.

"And what might that be?"

"A pardon, for him and his two younger children."
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...Huh. That doesn't sound all that bad. I mean, if OL makes the point clear that if Horne signs off on it, Sivana's tech cloud end this conflict in days, if not hours, it might be an easy choice to make. No doubt it won't be that easy.

Lane actually gapes for a moment.

"Are you serious?"
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A reminder: End the conflict in days, if not hours, General.

"I'm reporting what he told me. If you mean, 'is he serious', yes, I believe so. The only thing he wants more than he wants to continue to practice mad science on the innocent people of the world is to get back together with his ex-wife."

"He a mass murderer."
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That's going to be a sticking point, isn't it?

"Yes, General. In addition, every country on the planet has to pardon him for it to 'count'."

The Director of National Intelligence shuffles in his seat, takes a deep breath in and out and raises and lowers his eyebrows.
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...Okay, not quite as easy. Though Sivana hasn't committed many crimes outside US jurisdiction has he? I suspect most diplomats would simply go, "He can end this fight quickly? We can sign off on a pardon, no problems!"

"That's… A lot. And… What exactly would we get in return?"

"Weapons that can destroy every Sheeda creature and abomination we've seen so far. Technology to block their portals, detect and board their ships and a type of energy shield that nullified their preferred range weapons. Use of robotic soldiers that come with all of that built in, plus access to his entire back catalogue of weapons and equipment if there's something you think might be helpful."
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No doubt booby-trapped to prevent any curious engineers working with them from poking around. Sivana may be a little crazy, but he is not stupid.

Lane leans forward, his eyes wide and focused on me.

"And you know where this guy is?"
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Thinking of launching a little military operation to capture him, General? That could be tough.

"Yes, General."

"For how long?"

"Since early last year."
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I mean, it's not like Sivana's the only person he's working to reform...

"Are there any other mass murderers you've been talking to?"

"None pertinent to the ongoing Harrowing, though my personal kill count is in at least six figures."
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Something which I bet many of them didn't know about. And the fact it didn't happen on Earth is probably a mitigating factor.

That causes a few flashes of unease, and I.. consider that I don't actually send reports to either the US government or the Security Council. Or the Themysciran senate or Queen Hippolyta. I've.. never checked what the League passes on about team activities or the activities of team members. Given that Batman has used us as a Charter bypass on more than one occasion, probably not that much.

Horne leafs through the dossier, breathing slowly but deeply. He looks… Shrivelled, frankly. "I… See the Sheeda had agents in the Security Council."
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I don't doubt they had agents everywhere. Thaddeus Senior did say he's been busy dealing with infiltrators and the like.

"There have been spine riders on Earth for at least the last century. Probably longer. Airport security doesn't include magic scans."

"How..?" He pushes to dossier away slightly. "How.. long would it take Doctor Sivana to get his technology into the field?"
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Probably as soon as he takes receipt of the pardons. Do not underestimate the power of SCIENCE!

"He already field-tested the robots in New Zealand. Two platoons and a long-range teleporter are ready to go now. Most of the technology is ready to go now; he builds it, tests it, then sticks it on a shelf while he works on the next thing."

Horne looks me in the eyes. He… Looks genuinely sad.
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And this is where ignoring the plot threads to raise relationship values with him kicks you in the ass.

"Do you know how many people he's killed? Or tried to kill?"

"Yes."
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To be fair, he can whistle up that data instantly, as soon as he wants to. Power Rings are Awesome. But that's not what he means, is it now?

"Do you think we should take this deal?"

I could say that his kill count -while significant- is less than seven billion. I could say that after years of everyone failing to take one mad scientist off the table he's offering to take himself off. I… Know that now I could say it to the families of his victims, and I know that they'd never accept that rationale.
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Yeah, I don't doubt they have a lot of vengeful thoughts towards the man. And no amount of 'But he's useful to the government' will lessen that.

"Yes."

"Thank you for bringing this to my attention." His eyes dip back to the dossier. "You're going to be talking to other heads of state?" I nod. "I'll need to discuss this with people before making a decision. You'll know before the end of the day."
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Hopefully he agrees. There's a lot of lives hanging in the balance. And even if he has a moral opposition to Sivana going unpunished, he can't overlook that fact... A big, sticky ol' moral quagmire for him.

I nod.

"Thank you, Mister President."
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Ultimately, Sivana's name isn't too widely known to the public except as a supervillian with a bodycount. If the full tally of his bodycount gets mooted about, this would hurt his re-election chances a lot.

Well, this is going to trigger a few debates, both in-story and out. Let's hope they stay civil. As for in-universe, I have to wonder just how widely known Dr. Sivana Senior is? I mean, Fawcett City, sure, he's probably a big name there. Elsewhere, though? I suspect if this goes public, some people will call for the pardon, just on the fact he claims to be able to drive off the Sheeda... On the other hand... G. Gordon Godfrey and people like him are going to have lots of anti-superhuman rhetorical ammunition.

"He a mass murderer."
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"He's a mass murderer."
 
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Fellow said:
Kinda looks like fiend armour
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A technorganic construct he controls as an aspect of his Old God powers, according to the Magog series.

Which also includes- Flight, limited invulnerability, adrenaline based enhanced strength and stamina, and optical enhancements.

And of course plasma blasts through his staff.

I think without Gog finishing his transformation he's just got the plasma bolts here, unless someone whose read that JSA run would care to contradict my assumption?
 
Slayer Anderson said:
Objectively speaking, there are three reasons to imprison an individual for committing crimes against someone else, including the state.

The first is to keep the remainder of society safe by removing elements perceived as dangerous from the common pool of humanity so that they cannot continue with their crimes and hurt more people/property/etc...

The second is punishment. It sets a good behavioral precedent to see someone who has done something society perceives as 'wrong' having liberties taken away from them and serves as a warning to others that the same might befall them if they choose to transgress against the law.

The third is rehabilitation. Taking someone who commits a crime and turning them into someone who does not commit crimes by rehabilitating them returns people who would otherwise be disruptive to society back into the pool of constructive citizens.
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#2 is actually 2 separate ones, utilitarian punishment (show what happens to people who break the rules to prevent others from doing so) and retributive punishment (you are punished for doing a bad thing). This is making me twitch because I'm currently pulling my very first all-nighter ever for my 1L year and we've gone over this in criminal law a lot.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
Objectively
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I know. Then there's retribution, debt to society, etc. We did it in law.

Vaermina said:
No... It really isn't that hard to get...

Pretty much every government on Earth has excused more for less then Sivana is offering.
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There are upwards of 170 countries, and as it is they rarely agree unanimously on anything, ever, and this is as controversial as it gets. You'd have much better luck trying help Sisyphus with his rock.

Plus, people are stupid.
 
Chojin Patriarch said:
I wonder if he'll notice that the President may be a robotic doppelganger? Because that was a plot point the Renegade dealt with some time earlier. :confused: Or was that on Justice Lords Earth? The joy of long, long runners.
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I think it happened in both the Earth 50 episode and in the renegade side.

Chojin Patriarch said:
It's amusing that Renegade and Paragon mirror each other in so many ways. One is a family man bachelor, the other's dating but with no plans for kids. One is close to their League and Team, the other is.. not. One refuses to modify himself for relatively odd reasons, the other hit the power-up button with his face repeatedly... And they support opposing Presidential Candidates.
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Renegade is also dating someone, so he's not a bachelor.

Chojin Patriarch said:
<Points to eyes, then to Father Time> Honestly, OL, I'm amazed the name didn't jog some memory of crazy shit. Just being here is a worry. Is SHADE really that powerful, or is it because of the Sheeda thing? Is Adam Frankenstein lurking somewhere, or is he off hunting Sheeda?
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Frankenstein may be still on ice, at least I think Zoat mentioned that once.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Okay, not quite as easy. Though Sivana hasn't committed many crimes outside US jurisdiction has he? I suspect most diplomats would simply go, "He can end this fight quickly? We can sign off on a pardon, no problems!"
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I once asked Zoat why the Sivana children just don't wok for China and he replied because they committed crimes there and the Chinese didn't want to try their chance at controlling them, so that could mean hat their father is also a criminal there.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Something which I bet many of them didn't know about. And the fact it didn't happen on Earth is probably a mitigating factor.
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He did tell those video game developers about his trip to Vgea, but I doubt the military paid much attention to that.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well, this is going to trigger a few debates, both in-story and out. Let's hope they stay civil. As for in-universe, I have to wonder just how widely known Dr. Sivana Senior is? I mean, Fawcett City, sure, he's probably a big name there. Elsewhere, though? I suspect if this goes public, some people will call for the pardon, just on the fact he claims to be able to drive off the Sheeda... On the other hand... G. Gordon Godfrey and people like him are going to have lots of anti-superhuman rhetorical ammunition.
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With Scott and Barda being on Earth he may not show up for fear of being recognized, but he may try to influence some news reporter to do what he did in canon, or just disguise himself.
 
Ardy said:
#2 is actually 2 separate ones, utilitarian punishment (show what happens to people who break the rules to prevent others from doing so) and retributive punishment (you are punished for doing a bad thing). This is making me twitch because I'm currently pulling my very first all-nighter ever for my 1L year and we've gone over this in criminal law a lot.
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My father taught law and lectured me on these points, so yeah, I know the specifics, but I didn't feel like giving a full thesis-level post and decided they can be lumped together for the purposes of discussing here and now. Also, from a personal standpoint, I disagree with retributive punishment as a foundational element for jailing individuals.

If you feel like this subject needs a better summary than I've given and want to include more technical details, feel free to do so.

Edit: For the sake of completion, I went back and added a note about retributive punishment.
 
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Idkusername said:
There are upwards of 170 countries, and as it is they rarely agree unanimously on anything, ever, and this is as controversial as it gets. You'd have much better luck trying help Sisyphus with his rock.

Plus, people are stupid.
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Most of those 170 countries are of the singular leader type.

And of those that aren't, most are like the US in that they have provisions for a singular leader to make unilateral decisions in the case of national emergencies.
 
Darko said:
The Jedi, well most of them, considered the clones to be people.
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If only they'd treated them like they did.
Chojin Patriarch said:
...Doesn't do things by halves, does ol' Tad? I suppose subtlety is not a Sivana family watchword...
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By Sivana standards, that was.
Ultimately, Sivana's name isn't too widely known to the public except as a supervillian with a bodycount. If the full tally of his bodycount gets mooted about, this would hurt his re-election chances a lot.
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To be fair to Horne, he doesn't care about that.
Well, this is going to trigger a few debates, both in-story and out. Let's hope they stay civil. As for in-universe, I have to wonder just how widely known Dr. Sivana Senior is? I mean, Fawcett City, sure, he's probably a big name there. Elsewhere, though? I suspect if this goes public, some people will call for the pardon, just on the fact he claims to be able to drive off the Sheeda... On the other hand... G. Gordon Godfrey and people like him are going to have lots of anti-superhuman rhetorical ammunition.
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He's not a household name across the world, but then neither was Napier until then Injustice League thing.
"He's a mass murderer."
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Thank you, corrected.
 
Vaermina said:
Most of those 170 countries are of the singular leader type.

And of those that aren't, most are like the US in that they have provisions for a singular leader to make unilateral decisions in the case of national emergencies.
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...And? What does that have to do with anything? That is meant for swift an decisive executive decisions in times of crisis - which this is, no doubt - but there stance will generally reflect that of their government, given by your arguments, most of them are their government, and that's generally true even for those that aren't.

On top of this, it does nothing to change international relations and politics, and the huge potential for shitstorms.
 
One down, a few more hundred to go... Although I suspect most countries actually don't have a, what, a warrant for Sivana's arrest. So maybe just a few dozen more...
 
Darko said:
They did apparently make them legal citizens after a while, at least from what I remember in this story.
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And forbade cloning.
It's not really cloning if you mix the DNA a little bit.
I wonder how that worked? Was it like, every living kryptonian had to have a unique genetic sequence? Could you have technically cloned someone's great-grandpa? OTOH, they had genetic records...I wonder if a person's gene sequence was considered something like a social security ID?
 
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