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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Senevri said:
It's really only fucked up without consent. Forgetting isn't inherently a bad thing. Especially if it can help you get over trauma. That being said there are several ways how this could go wrong
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Yes, forgetting isn't necessarily a completely bad thing, but it kinda is in this case since the one that will be forgetting things would be doing so that she can forget the trauma a man caused her and will probably still have to spend time with said man.

Like I mentioned in my previous posts; it's like taking drugs or having a lobotomy.
 
Why not go all the way. Temporarily
wipe both parent's memories. Send Hades and Persephone to live normal human lives and see if they fall in love. Obviously an excuse for a drama arc.
Will they risk it all???


Have Zag and kin run the underworld in the interm.

And watch people try to sabotage the experiment I mean test of worthiness.
 
Old Knife said:
Why not go all the way. Temporarily
wipe both parent's memories. Send Hades and Persephone to live normal human lives and see if they fall in love. Obviously an excuse for a drama arc.
Will they risk it all???


Have Zag and kin run the underworld in the interm.

And watch people try to sabotage the experiment I mean test of worthiness.
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I don't see that ending well as soon as Persephone gets her memories back.
 
Prince Charon said:
Paul is a utilitarian who has gone a bit far from the sort of mindset most of the readers are used to dealing with, so his decisions and attitudes are going to be strange in places. As someone with an interest in psychology (not a degree, just an interest), studying his behavior is part of why I still read this fic.
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Paul isnt a utilitarian. He very clearly has shown deontology in his actions. Particularly in how "something of his" was treated. If he was a utilitarian he would have had to accept Nabu as a net good and been more accomodating. But he went straight to murder.
 
Senevri said:
Most fun option? Paul gets a Lethe dose and we have an episode of semi-retro-Paul shenanigans.
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That could be fun indeed.

A difficulty I see with this plan that I haven't seen people mention yet: Assume that Paul and company work out the Lethe mechanics and Persephone agrees with the idea (huge assumption, but bear with me). After she forgets Hades in the context of marriage, she's still Persephone, just without that part of her life. Only there are millions of people alive, and, hmm, given who they are, this is relevant, millions more who once were alive, who know the story of her and Hades. There are hundreds, probably more, who she actually interacts with in the lands of the dead, to whom she is Queen Persephone. When she hears about what happened, however far into the future that is, whether Hades is successful in his suit or not, and she eventually will… Does she believe that past her actually thought this was a good idea, or does she think that someone lied to her, did this to her? How does that then affect her view of the Hades who is trying to court her (or has successfully courted her)?

I shouldn't necessarily say that she eventually will find out, I suppose that there's probably some form of magic that could also erase that part of her story from everyone's memory and recorded history, but then you're not talking about just Lethe water then.

I'm also wondering how her psyche looks with the gaps in it. Would it try to fill them in somehow? And if so, with what? How does it explain her three children? Her absences from her mother? Like, the spaces will have a certain shape. And yeah, her subconscious could try to invent something happier to fill it, like maybe a vague fuzzy composite romantic partner who is to her liking, or slotting in someone who she might have dreamed of a relationship with (who of course wouldn't actually have been in that position and might be very surprised if Persephone behaved accordingly), (I'm picturing certain permutations of fanfic from the X-Men House of M arc with Wanda Maximoff because they also have this air of 'something is so much better in this one specific way than the thing that it replaced even if I can't quite tell, but it still feels off, and it's going to be terrible when this breaks', actually right now), but for the purposes of this plan, that leaves Hades out of luck since, you know, it's probably not him, and he's maybe trying to compete with this non-existent invented person, or trying to take hints as to how to become that person (see various amnesia/dementia tropes). Of course, she is a goddess, she doesn't necessarily need someone else's involvement to be a mother. Her mind could fill in the blanks with being a single parent who has a stalker who she needs to avoid. That's not great for Hades either.

I mean, I assume that Paul's got more in mind here, for all I know this could be a way to make a certain type of point without going through with it, but if not, this is a big ball of yarn.
 
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How I think it should be done (though mind tempering usually freaks me out) is that they make avatars of themselves. Fill those avatars with the necessary memories and have them meet for the first as mortals like some sort of blind date situation if it works out, go on from there and they continue to date. If some sort of loving relationship forms between the avatars then reabsorb them back into the whole of their divine beings so they can feel what untainted love for each other is like and take the next step in their relationship whether is a continuance of the current marriage or a clean break.
 
dw7thdoctor said:
How I think it should be done (though mind tempering usually freaks me out) is that they make avatars of themselves. Fill those avatars with the necessary memories and have them meet for the first as mortals like some sort of blind date situation if it works out, go on from there and they continue to date. If some sort of loving relationship forms between the avatars then reabsorb them back into the whole of their divine beings so they can feel what untainted love for each other is like and take the next step in their relationship whether is a continuance of the current marriage or a clean break.
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That honestly sounds like the most sane-ish idea I've heard concerning the use of the Lethe waters.
 
Rereading some of the old stuff again and found this Paul's views he had have changed from then to now.
"Yes. The most tempting choice of all would be to erase all memory since my reactivation and then reinstate the program. I would have to create a believable explanation for my resurrection and convince everyone who knows me to go along with it. But..." She stands there for ten seconds, completely still and saying nothing. She doesn't have to breathe unless she wants to speak, and at the moment she isn't. "Danette could be happy with the result."

"No. Absolutely not. Killing yourself is not the answer."

"It would not precisely be suicide."

"But if you have the program restored, you're effectively altering your mind to become a new person. You wouldn't be you anymore, it's close enough." I take a moment to think it through. "If the choice is a comforting delusion or an uncomfortable truth, I'd choose truth. That's part of why I'm an atheist. If you want.. help, making happier memories... I've got lots of spare time if there's something you want to do."
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dw7thdoctor said:
Rereading some of the old stuff again and found this Paul's views he had have changed from then to now.
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Ardy said:
he cared about Red Inferno, he does not care about Persephone
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Yeah, if Paul cares about you then he'll move Heaven and Earth to help you.

And given what he can do, he may literally do that.

If he doesn't care about you then he may just shrug and either do the bare minimum or come up with an insane idea that he thinks may work, even if it's wrong in a lot of ways.
 
boo600 said:
So, this is going better than I thought... but why does Zagreus curse him? *blinking confusion*
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I was really nervous at the direction. I'm glad it's going somewhere more creative than another basic divorce.

I'm thinking Hades will offer to remove his own memories as well.
 
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I didn't mean a magical curse! I got that part.

*sighs*

Sorry. I had a lot to comment on, and I picked something that seemed mild for my first post. My mistake.
 
I'm guessing the reason that Paul's immediate preference is to remove Persephone's memories of her issues with the relationship, rather than Hades' memories of falling in love is twofold:

1. Paul cares about Hades more. If there's anything particularly notable about Paul's character and powerset, it'd be that Paul is at his most effective when there's personal stakes involved (see: his ring's healing function became less efficient when healing random civilians many times in a row, because it's difficult to muster any fucks for people you don't know who are missing arms when there's hundreds of them around. There's no personal involvement; no, "I own this person/relationship" instinct, so Avarice doesn't work.)

2. He probably views it as more efficient/utilitarian to remove negative emotions (Persephone's feelings of the relationship,) than positive emotions (Hades' feelings of the relationship.)
 
Radix said:
Paul isnt a utilitarian. He very clearly has shown deontology in his actions. Particularly in how "something of his" was treated. If he was a utilitarian he would have had to accept Nabu as a net good and been more accommodating. But he went straight to murder.
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Paul had no way no knowing that Nabu was a net good who spend all his spare time deal with mystical threats to the world/humanity. Also, Paragon didn't go "straight to murder". Nabu was offered all kinds of ways out such as a mindless golem body and efforts to find pretty much ANY host that wasn't Zatanna's father, but Nabu's attitude was that of arrogance and feeling that he didn't have to explain or justify himself to anyone because he was entitled to use Giovanni Zatara as his body and run the man into the ground.
 
Radix said:
Paul isnt a utilitarian. He very clearly has shown deontology in his actions. Particularly in how "something of his" was treated.
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That does not mean that he's not a utilitarian, it means that he's not only a utilitarian (because sapient beings are complex). To put it another way, he's not an absolute utilitarian, he's a 'utilitarian with some exceptions' that he's probably aware of (certainly Zoat is aware of them, Paul may be less aware, unless Mr Zoat says otherwise).
 
Regnancy (part 16)
  • Threadmarks
    • 29th October 2012
    22:23 GMT -5

    "Recognised, Orange Lantern, B Zero Six."

    "Hey, Oh El."

    As the lights fade I see Richard working at the main computer. He doesn't look around.

    "You know you.. can just use my name."

    "It's not a good idea to get into the habit of calling superheroes by name when they're in uniform."

    I consider that for a moment, then shrug and switch into normal clothes.

    "Better?"

    He glances around, and smirks. "I'm not exactly a fashion expert, but I don't know I'd call it better, Paul."

    "Y'all just jealous of my Orange Lantern swagger." I stroll over. "What are you working on?"

    "Uncle Sam."

    "Can you..? Explain to me how significant a figure he is? To Americans?"

    "Ah, he hasn't been around for a while, Paul. Most Americans just think he's an old and crazy Greatest-Generation-patriotic superhero."

    "Do we know what he actually is?"

    "Why? Did you get done messing with the Greek gods so you need to mess with the American ones?"

    "Lady Liberty defected to Japan."

    "Freedom of Religion, Paul. She can be worshipped by whoever she wants."

    "Just because you have the constitutionally guaranteed freedom to do something, that doesn't mean that you should use it. Find anything?"

    "Well, he does act a little different, but the analysis program is working from nineteen forties video footage. It's pretty much all staged, which means his actions aren't natural."

    "Did Red Tornado or Red Inferno meet him? We might be able to download a video file."

    "I already asked." He calls up a video file, and I get a grainy video of a party of some sort. A square forms around one corner of the room and expands, showing Uncle Sam casually patting Human Bomb on the shoulder as Invisible Hood backs away. "Same problem. They only met him a couple of times and didn't work together."

    "Alan and Jay?"

    "They knew him, but it's been a long time. And we've only got the word of 'The American Goddess of Liberty'-" He sounds like he's not taking the idea entirely seriously. "-that there's anything wrong in the first place. Batman didn't notice anything wrong when he spoke to him."

    "Batman's American."

    "So you think he's got some kind of American-specific mind control? Bit of a stretch."

    "Until you remember that Captain Nazi could influence the minds of Germans. Did Diana meet him?"

    "Ah, I don't think so." He brings up a Justice League itinerary. "No. Not officially."

    "Rats. So I assume that it's inconclusive."

    "Well, there are differences." He calls up a couple of examples, one of Uncle Sam walking down a corridor and another of him shaking someone's hand. "But there aren't enough from the forties for me to be sure that was how he always did it. And even if it was, that doesn't mean he hasn't just changed how he does it."

    "Or if he is something like Captain Nazi, he could have died and been replaced by a doppelgänger. That's not necessarily a cause for concern."

    "This might be."

    He brings up Uncle Sam's itinerary.

    "Not that I mind, but did we get that legitimately or-."

    "No."

    "I suppose this probably won't go to court one way or the other. Is-?" I see what he's talking about. "Ah."

    Uncle Sam's been meeting with the with people on the House Committee on the Judiciary, which is odd but not really a cause for concern in itself. Usually a superhero would have to have a little more renown that he has to be called up for the sake of it, but his whole thing is being 'Super United States Man'. The potential problem is that he's also been talking to a lot of people responsible for running the Alliance.

    The Justice League's charter was signed off on by the United Nations Security Council, which means that the U.S. Federal Government via the State Department approved it. But while that covers the League, actual U.S. policy towards superpowered vigilantes varies greatly from place to place. Occasionally, some brave soul suggests federal regulation, then someone points to Gotham or Hub City as a good example of why a government bypass isn't always a bad thing.

    Or they wish them good luck arresting Superman, or they ask them how good their health plan is.

    "That's worrying, but it's hardly a smoking gun."

    "How much control did Captain Nazi have?"

    "Pass. Some. It's hard to quantify that sort of thing. How much mind control protection do Members of Congress have?"

    "Basically? None."

    My smile vanishes. "That's a problem."

    "A few have wards which should stop magic mind control-."

    "Ah… No. If they're using the type I think they are, they won't. Not the style Captain Nazi used. They're designed to weaken or throw off ongoing spells. Captain Nazi's control was undirected; everyone in a place was in effect surrounded by the spell at all times. There isn't anywhere to throw it off to. Even my spell eaters would just keep heating up until they became useless. Telepath blockers?"

    "I don't think we've got those."

    "We've got g-gnomes. They could easily block any hostile telepath they'd be likely to encounter. I'd bet on a few dozen of them even against someone as strong as M'gann."

    "Wouldn't that just mean that the g-gnomes were controlling Congress rather than anyone else?"

    "I trust creatures without an instinct to dominate more than I would most humans. But we should probably raise the issue with the Speaker of the House at some point."

    "Good luck. But right now they don't have any telepathic defences."

    "Marvellous. Remind me why we haven't replaced them all with robots?"

    "If we did, they might actually start working."
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Mr Zoat said:
    just think he's a old and crazy
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    "he's an old"

    Mr Zoat said:
    casually patting Human Bomb on the shoulder as [urlhttps://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Kent_Thurston_(New_Earth)]Invisible Hood[/url] backs away. "Same
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    There's problem with what I'm assuming is supposed to be a link.

    Mr Zoat said:
    charter was signed off on my the United Nations Security Council
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    Remove "my"

    Mr Zoat said:
    "How much control did Captain Nazi have?"

    "Pass
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    Such a Zoat thing to say.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "Marvellous. Remind me why we haven't replaced them all with robots
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    Who says some haven't been replaced?

    Mr Zoat said:
    "If we did, they might actually start working
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    Ha!
     
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