Dungeon Crawler Quest(Original Fantasy)

Arkeus · Dec 1, 2014

Grosstoad said:
First, approach Maya. Then double team Seraphine, before descending like a flood of estrogen over Jack and Anshelm.

You think a full team is good from the get go? I guess it means we'll be much safer, but at the same time i don't know how it goes about experience gain.

Though, yeah, it makes perfect sense....just not sure our Charisma would be enough to get them all. Might vote that soon if no one bothers to vote.

Xicree · Dec 1, 2014

Grosstoad said:
First, approach Maya. Then double team Seraphine, before descending like a flood of estrogen over Jack and Anshelm.

Ok caught up... and I completely agree on this one.

Maya seems at first glance to be the type to want to be party leader... thats fine by me.

So yeah I think I'll vote for just that.

[X] 2 Potion and 1 Amritas
[X] First, approach Maya. Then double team Seraphine, before descending like a flood of estrogen over Jack and Anshelm.

redaeth · Dec 1, 2014

[X] First, approach Maya. Then double team Seraphine, before descending like a flood of estrogen over Jack and Anshelm.

yrsillar · Dec 1, 2014

Trying for a full party right away eh? That's fine, just keep in mind that it means splitting the loot and xp five ways

Arkeus · Dec 1, 2014

Ok, here goes:
[X]2 Potion and 1 Amritas
[X]Anshelm and Maya, so we get the little brother and the older sister type.

While i am tempted by the 5-man party i don't think we'll gain much speed of dungeoneering with a cleric/Seraphine, especially given we'd have almost half as much XP. Loot-wise, Neither Anshelm nor Maya share the same equipment we do so it's all good in case we find Elementalist-specific thing, which is why i don't want to get Seraphine right now.

Pretty sure this is the optimal clearing speed/endurance combo.

Adyen · Dec 1, 2014

I'm on my phone right now so this might be short.

If we're going to buy any amount of potions > 1 then we probably won't need a dedicated healer for now. Our slow will likely be able to reduce most damage in a beginner dungeon and we'll have extra potions if needed.

On the other hand, if we do get a healer, it might be better to grab an extra sp recovery item over healing.

Eh. I'll think more when I'm not on my phone.

redaeth · Dec 1, 2014

Honestly I'm of the opinion five way is fine since it actually means we can go further for longer. Get more loot with less trips home.

Arkeus · Dec 1, 2014

redaeth said:
Honestly I'm of the opinion five way is fine since it actually means we can go further for longer. Get more loot with less trips home.

I don't think it will be the case at first. We should be able to do our first dungeons with that 3-man party as we have a higher-level DPS, a tank and a CC (us).

Guile · Dec 2, 2014

[X] Tip our metaphorical hat to Maya and chat up the bald giant. Level 3 means an uneven split of the loot and xp, but it's undoubtedly better than a full group, and hopefully he'll murder his way through mobs without us having to work hard.

junsa · Dec 2, 2014

Can everyone please go a little more indepte with your plans or the GM will write the meetings based on the charisma plus the role a better plan will have a higher chance of convincing them

tenchi96 · Dec 2, 2014

[X] 2 Potion and 1 Amritas
[X] First, approach Maya. Then double team Seraphine, before descending like a flood of estrogen over Jack and Anshelm.

In my opinion the sooner we get a full party the better.
Experience in working together is important. Besides, we will be probably overpowered for the first dungeons, yes, but this way we can blaze through them quickly and get to the tougher ones.
This is also a very well rounded setup.
A tank, a healer, a scout/DD, and two arcane casters, DD/DOT and DD/Debuff.
Pretty nice.
Maximum level three - still acceptable, and the others should catch up shortly.

Arkeus · Dec 2, 2014

tenchifew said:
[X] 2 Potion and 1 Amritas

In my opinion the sooner we get a full party the better.
Experience in working together is important. Besides, we will be probably overpowered for the first dungeons, yes, but this way we can blaze through them quickly and get to the tougher ones.

That's not true- The two members we'll miss- the cleric and Fire Elementalist- would both not add appreciably to our DPS and would noticeably slow down our progression as we would get stronger half as fast. It's even worse as we share the same equipment needs with fire elementalist, so we'll struggle to get anything.

This is also a very well rounded setup.
A tank, a healer, a scout/DD, and two arcane casters, DD/DOT and DD/Debuff.
Pretty nice.
Maximum level three - still acceptable, and the others should catch up shortly.

Again, not really- that's a nice round-up at higher levels, but at lower levels the healer and the DD/DOT are unnecessary or even burdens as they take precious loot/xp, and our own spells cancel out the DOTs.

tenchi96 · Dec 2, 2014

Arkeus said:
That's not true- The two members we'll miss- the cleric and Fire Elementalist- would both not add appreciably to our DPS and would noticeably slow down our progression as we would get stronger half as fast. It's even worse as we share the same equipment needs with fire elementalist, so we'll struggle to get anything.

Disagree.
It is a truly rare setting where a Fire Elementalist does not add to DPS.
And a cleric, besides saving us the necessity to buy potions and have a lot of equipment slots being blocked by these potions, is someone who is really missed when he is not there. Cleric is often the difference between a standard run and a total party kill. It is possible to have a party without a healer. It is rarely advisable, in any rpg system I know of.

Arkeus said:
Again, not really- that's a nice round-up at higher levels, but at lower levels the healer and the DD/DOT are unnecessary or even burdens as they take precious loot/xp, and our own spells cancel out the DOTs.

Besides that I think the people will be useful immediately -see above-
I also think that one of the more important points is trust and the ability to work together. The party will level and grow together, will learn spells and abilities to be in synergy with each other, be ready to have each other's backs.
There are a lot of positives to have a complete team from the get go.
Besides, in ten levels or so, how many of the I tersting people won't be in a team already?

Arkeus · Dec 2, 2014

tenchifew said:
Disagree.
It is a truly rare setting where a Fire Elementalist does not add to DPS.

When using our own spell cancels the fire spell, and when it means we need to buy twice as many SP potion for the same loot...

And a cleric, besides saving us the necessity to buy potions and have a lot of equipment slots being blocked by these potions, is someone who is really missed when he is not there. Cleric is often the difference between a standard run and a total party kill. It is possible to have a party without a healer. It is rarely advisable, in any rpg system I know of.

Except that the cleric means -33%EXP and Loot gain, and that difference is enough to buy potions /and/ is enough to gain level faster and tackle harder dungeons faster.

Besides that I think the people will be useful immediately -see above-
I also think that one of the more important points is trust and the ability to work together. The party will level and grow together, will learn spells and abilities to be in synergy with each other, be ready to have each other's backs.
There are a lot of positives to have a complete team from the get go.

And yet you could say the opposite- that having a smaller team create stronger bonds, and that's it's easier to learn how to fight with fewer people at first.

Besides, in ten levels or so, how many of the I tersting people won't be in a team already?

Really pushing ourself means getting to lvl10 in two weeks. With 5 people, this is probably a month if not two (i expect 3 people would already slow it down a bit). We will get other people in our team by then, as it will mean at least 20/30 updates.

tenchi96 · Dec 2, 2014

Arkeus said:
When using our own spell cancels the fire spell, and when it means we need to buy twice as many SP potion for the same loot...

It cancels the secondary effect, not the primary damage. It should also not matter if more than one monster is attacked, given that the setting seems to be similar to jrpgs a very probable situation.

Arkeus said:
Except that the cleric means -33%EXP and Loot gain, and that difference is enough to buy potions /and/ is enough to gain level faster and tackle harder dungeons faster.

Actually going from three to five people means going from 33% to 20% each - 13% difference.
And with more people we can tackle harder dungeons faster as well. Maybe even faster than with three people. A cleric should reduce downtime strongly as well.

Arkeus said:
And yet you could say the opposite- that having a smaller team create stronger bonds, and that's it's easier to learn how to fight with fewer people at first.

Stronger bonds, of course, between the people who are there from the beginning.
Making integrating new people into the team even harder.

Arkeus said:
Really pushing ourself means getting to lvl10 in two weeks. With 5 people, this is probably a month if not two (i expect 3 people would already slow it down a bit). We will get other people in our team by then, as it will mean at least 20/30 updates.

Not if we tackle the harder dungeons, and we should be able to do it with a full party.

Xicree · Dec 2, 2014

Harder dungeons, and exercise our own currently E class search skill to help find more mobs to kill.

Arkeus · Dec 2, 2014

tenchifew said:
It cancels the secondary effect, not the primary damage. It should also not matter if more than one monster is attacked, given that the setting seems to be similar to jrpgs a very probable situation.

Our cold attacks are AOEs.

Actually going from three to five people means going from 33% to 20% each - 13% difference.

Going from 3 to 4 is losing 25% EXP, and going from 3 to 5 is losing 40%

And with more people we can tackle harder dungeons faster as well. Maybe even faster than with three people. A cleric should reduce downtime strongly as well.

Again, not true. Going from 3 to 5 means we can tackle harder dungeons later, as we will have lower levels and gear and no more DPS.

Stronger bonds, of course, between the people who are there from the beginning.
Making integrating new people into the team even harder.

Which might be a good thing.

Not if we tackle the harder dungeons, and we should be able to do it with a full party.

Except we'll be able to tackle harder dungeons faster with 3 people than 5.

Grosstoad · Dec 2, 2014

On site, on mobile.

Only time a five-man party is not worth it is if there is limited number of Dungeons or limited Dungeon attempts per day.

Roles:
- Anshelm: Defender, hopefully has Aggro skills, focus on keeping casters alive and unhurt
- Jack: Healer and Buffer, focus on improving Anshelm's defense and Maya's offense
- Seraphine: Primarily damage dealer with chance to give Damage over Time and Accuracy Debuff , focus on ranged attackers
- Alice: Crowd Control, Slow and Freeze halt enemy advances and attacks, focus on melee attackers as Slow always hits
- Maya, dodge tank, skirmisher, roving scout, her job is to pick out clearly weakened enemies and other opportunities

(Bare-bones) Recruit plan:
- (Maya) I am in mint condition and prefer it to be so. Will be grateful for help/tutoring. Other will also be happy/grateful for help/tutoring
- (Sera) Not familliar with you, but no matter. Looking to make a big one, better to get to know more people.
- (Ansh) META provoke his eagerness to prove himself as the big man
- (Jack) META will be so happy with big party

EDIT: Alice spells cause minor damage, always Slows, and has minor chance to Freeze. Sera spells probably has medium damage, might have minor or medium chance to cause Burn.
Burn & Freeze cancel each other, but better to have Freeze on.
Slow is superseded by Freeze but can be stacked with Burn.
Alice spells are close range. Assuming Sera spells are mid range.

Arkeus · Dec 3, 2014

Grosstoad said:
On site, on mobile.

Only time a five-man party is not worth it is if there is limited number of Dungeons or limited Dungeon attempts per day.

Or if the two more people we get mean that the overall strength of the team is weaker.

Look, it's simple. At level ten, the difference between 3 and 5 team members is bigger than at level 1. This is because at level 1 each team member has much less it can do. When it comes down to it, the cleric and the fire mage are not just dead weight but actively make our team slower at progressing through a dungeon as it means we'll both have lower levels and weaker gear. Given the Cleric can basically be replaced at low level by potions, and that the Fire Ementalist directly compete with us when it comes to gear and status effect, they /make the team weaker/.

Grosstoad · Dec 3, 2014

See Roles above, Cleric has Buffs to increase a party member's effectiveness, status effects are rider effects that has chance not to trigger, either helps.

We are not clear when a group of X members can reach Dungeon level Y while they are still at Z levels.

Groups with more members might have the chance to go deeper on each forays, or clear a dungeon faster, then either have the time to go back into dungeon, do errands, train, or socialize. On the other hand, a group with lesser members might be more tightly knit.

Arkeus · Dec 3, 2014

Grosstoad said:
See Roles above, Cleric has Buffs to increase a party member's effectiveness, status effects are rider effects that has chance not to trigger, either helps.

Clerics who uses buffs during fights won't have SP for heals, and with 5 members we won't have enough money for potions and gear.

Groups with more members might have the chance to go deeper on each forays, or clear a dungeon faster, then either have the time to go back into dungeon, do errands, train, or socialize. On the other hand, a group with lesser members might be more tightly knit.

Or groups with less members will have more levels and better gear and be able to go in dungeons farther and fasters while with more members we'll stay in starter gear and level longer and be unable to advance to harder dungeons.

Grosstoad · Dec 3, 2014

+shrugs+
Casters' (and other skill users) relationship with limited SP pool is well known. No different with Elementalists.

I understand the thought about gears and levels, thus the mention about having more time to do more Quests.

tenchi96 · Dec 3, 2014

Basically, yes, sometimes, if you know a system well, it is better for minmaxing to not use a full group.
Usually if the number of dungeons is limited, and this does not seem to be the case here.
Otherwise, in over ninety per cent of all cases, having a full party from the beginning, with an eye on high level viability, is the best option.

Xicree · Dec 3, 2014

So... Voters? Come on you know Yrs can't update unless people vote right?

Same goes for DDQ as here.

GiftofLove · Dec 4, 2014

[X] First, approach Maya. Then double team Seraphine, before descending like a flood of estrogen over Jack and Anshelm.

A little concerned that Anshelm will not react like you think he will, but let's see.

Darkened · Dec 4, 2014

[X]2 Potion and 1 Amritas
[X]Anshelm and Maya, so we get the little brother and the older sister type.

Full party means shit advancement, we're probably going to be doing something fairly quick and easy at first. Anshelm gives us a tank and Maya is a bit on the more experienced side and a secondary melee DPSish type.

Solid party balance and the plan to get everyone is probably going to fail hard, (and also just makes for really painfully slow advancement right out of the gate.)

If we express party differences in terms of XP/time the smaller party is going to offer much better XP.

It increases the risk, but there's no reason we have to stick with the same party forever and the human dynamic is a thing here. Grab a party and work with them, but don't fill up by trying to recruit the first adventurers we run into without knowing anything about them.

I'd much rather get a few levels and experience for how things work before trying to put together a serious party.

Also, harder dungeons? Really?

That's psychotic. We are going to the easiest simplest dungeon around to train because we have 0 experience using our magic, 0 experience in team work, 0 combat experience, have never put our new stats to their limits or really experienced the differences from being branded.

Rep matters and fucking up your newb adventure by getting a ton of people together then rushing into something more than you can chew is... well, bad.

Take a small party with us and do something safe and easy, then replan.

It's not like there's any prevailing reason we can't randomly recruit more people later.

DarkLight140 · Dec 4, 2014

[x] Arkeus

We can always add more people later if we feel the lack of certain skills, but I'd feel kind of bad kicking someone out for holding us back. Let's start with a slim team for a test run.

Grosstoad · Dec 4, 2014

Darkened said:
-snip-

Not going for harder Dungeons, but grinding beginner Dungeon with the extra leeway afforded by the extra members, in order to compensate for the aforementioned lesser share of XP and loot.

At least, that was what I was angling for.

Darkened · Dec 4, 2014

Grosstoad said:
Not going for harder Dungeons, but grinding beginner Dungeon with the extra leeway afforded by the extra members, in order to compensate for the aforementioned lesser share of XP and loot.

At least, that was what I was angling for.

The level 3s will probably outpace that very quickly, if they'd even join in the first place. Likewise, I doubt the time function changes linearly with each person added. Decreasing marginal returns is a thing.

IE: If 2 people take 1 hour to earn (Dungeon rewards which are presumably fixed) then 4 people will not take half an hour to earn the same reward, but rather more than half an hour. IE: You lose out on total reward.

As we increase the number, the fixed time costs (Walking to the dungeon, walking back, etc) won't change, and the rate at which the variable ones drop will decrease.

Now, the question we'd need to know is how much we should expect this to happen per adventurer added and how many drops we can expect and how many free item slots a given adventurer has.

(IE: If we get 50 approximately equal drops, the financial portion of the reward won't actually change until we have adventurers with more than 50 free slots between them.)

This also ignores that more people is going to make it harder to practice, pull the party in more directions and add to the number of personalities that need to be managed.

This isn't a game where NPCs have fixed dialogue and only react in a few basic ways during scripted events.

yrsillar · Dec 4, 2014

This was going to come up in the next update, but thinking on it, it's kind of immediately relevant. Each dungeon can only be visited once every 24 hours, or day as it were.

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