Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[ses]

I changed my mind, have to remember that Velvet used Lores as therapy to great success and thus would recommend it to Sweeps. And I don't want Velvet taking over the Wolf Cult because through her lens the Wolf is Evil, Paranoia, and Ash. I'd rather see what Soft keeps doing with them.

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Gift Her Freedom doesn't stop Soft Sweeps from doing what she's doing. We'll get a vote on how involved we want Soft to be, and we can absolutely vote for Soft to be in charge of the Support Group in a primary position of leadership. All it does is actually commit us to whipping them into shape and actually teaching them rather than having a repeat of the debacle where Velvet tosses some vague instructions at the Wildhoof club and they do a way unnecessarily brutal pony sacrifice under the belief that The Loremaster ordered it.

Remember that scene? People got really upset at that, and now we're going to repeat it. Haven't we learned through painful experience enough times that Velvet's control freak tendencies aren't actually a bad thing, but in fact exactly what is needed 99% of the time? And we get horribly horribly traumatically punished every time we decide "we wont be a control freak this time and will Trust Her(tm)".

I really want Soft to actually know what she's doing, and that requires us to take an active role.

 

[Nevermort]

To me personally, the problem of removing the Stains has always been a problem for Hour Velvet.

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I don't think it is so, but if we assume that Hour Velvet can deal with Stains and with Wolf in general then there is no reason not to do whatever we wish including taking further Stains while we are at it. Velvet will reach Glory and will banish Wolf's sons and will fix Soft, and will micromanage Wolf cult in Ponyville while at it. Is it not a logical conclusion to proposals to minimize damage right now and just leave everything to Hour Velvet? Even when it comes to taking over cult personally, who would lead it after Velvet ascends?

We could get intel about the Wolf, but what kind of intel and would we even do with it? We could corrupt the Wolf back, but what steps have we taken on that road? We are working with time limit, it is too late to start walking new paths.

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My opinion is that we should at least try to fix things now, instead of leaving everything to Hour Velvet. After we reach Glory we players would not be able to change anything, but if we possess all necessary information beforehand maybe there would be some kind of bonus ending. Like options on what to do in the process of merging with Glory or right before taking it.

Which is why I think getting more information on Wolf is the best option. It is only a chance, but a chance to fix everything. And really Soft killed herself, gets visits from other Sons, leads murderous cult and people afraid of the possibility that things would become a tiny bit worse for her? And willing to screw over everyone in Ponyville over it? Maybe time to start improving things instead?

I guess spreading cult influence is second best opinion. I mean if we don't give them dangerous tools then eventually authorities will manage to deal with them without much trouble. I don't think Hour Velvet will have time to spare on them, being single Hour sounds like 24/7 job.

Taking over cult ourself will take our actions and I think people underestimate how much time it takes for cult to train itself into being useful. For cadre to become functional they all first need to advance in their lores too.

And giving them tools, I honestly don't understand, is it not like the worst option possible ? Velvet have zero control over cult. Soft have barely any control over them and largely unaware of what they are doing. Why people assume that that they will help us in any way instead of starting spawning ash-ghouls on our doorstep? Why leading option is to get ash-ghouls on our doorstep?

 

[DelightedOne]

And giving them tools, I honestly don't understand, is it not like the worst option possible ? Velvet have zero control over cult. Soft have barely any control over them and largely unaware of what they are doing. Why people assume that that they will help us in any way instead of starting spawning ash-ghouls on our doorstep? Why leading option is to get ash-ghouls on our doorstep?

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Oh, that's easy.

1. They think we will benefit no matter the option, even though this was explicitly stated to be a price we are paying.

2. Voting to keep the other 2 serious competitors(influence and inspiration) out.

3. Thinking it is a lesser evil to give them lore, cause we will eventually have lore police.

4. The Twilight bait with Forge's Redemption.

 

[Sk1lz3r]

I have been binging this quest for the past 4 days and managed to catch up. I have never actually voted in a Quest before so I hope I'm not doing it wrong.

Now… I dont quite fully understand the ramifications of influence and that last line of "understanding" and "being so proud of her" sounds just a tad too ominous for me. So I'll

[X] Gift her tools.

 

[Nevermort]

4. The Twilight bait with Forge's Redemption.

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I don't think giving tools includes teaching Lores? And on its own Wolf cult would not have Forge lore to conduct ritual. And Wolf is only Winter and Edge.
So unless I am missing something only rituals they should be able to do would be Winter and Edge related?

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

For what reason

I don't think it is so, but if we assume that Hour Velvet can deal with Stains and with Wolf in general then there is no reason not to do whatever we wish including taking further Stains while we are at it. Velvet will reach Glory and will banish Wolf's sons and will fix Soft, and will micromanage Wolf cult in Ponyville while at it. Is it not a logical conclusion to proposals to minimize damage right now and just leave everything to Hour Velvet? Even when it comes to taking over cult personally, who would lead it after Velvet ascends?


My opinion is that we should at least try to fix things now, instead of leaving everything to Hour Velvet. After we reach Glory we players would not be able to change anything, but if we possess all necessary information beforehand maybe there would be some kind of bonus ending. Like options on what to do in the process of merging with Glory or right before taking it.

Which is why I think getting more information on Wolf is the best option. It is only a chance, but a chance to fix everything. And really Soft killed herself, gets visits from other Sons, leads murderous cult and people afraid of the possibility that things would become a tiny bit worse for her? And willing to screw over everyone in Ponyville over it? Maybe time to start improving things instead?

I guess spreading cult influence is second best opinion. I mean if we don't give them dangerous tools then eventually authorities will manage to deal with them without much trouble. I don't think Hour Velvet will have time to spare on them, being single Hour sounds like 24/7 job.

Taking over cult ourself will take our actions and I think people underestimate how much time it takes for cult to train itself into being useful. For cadre to become functional they all first need to advance in their lores too.

And giving them tools, I honestly don't understand, is it not like the worst option possible ? Velvet have zero control over cult. Soft have barely any control over them and largely unaware of what they are doing. Why people assume that that they will help us in any way instead of starting spawning ash-ghouls on our doorstep? Why leading option is to get ash-ghouls on our doorstep?

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Why are you assuming they will be dumping ash-ghouls on our doorstep? What need do they have for ash-ghouls? Their self-appointed purpose is to serve Soft Sweeps, does Soft Sweeps need Ash Ghouls for something?

The best limiter on this cult's behavior at this point in time is Soft Sweeps. Taking Soft Sweeps to Narrative Stain 4 is going to change her more towards the Wolf, specifically past the tipping point where the filth makes up the greater part of the whole.

Finally, I agree that we should try to fix Wolf things before ascending as best we can. I do not assume Hour Velvet can wave a hoof to undo her son's and fix the Wolf Cult and save Soft Sweeps and so on because the Wolf is also an Hour. The Wolf gets a vote. And all he has to do is say "No Velvet, I have need of our Children," and nothing changes. I simply don't think that shoving more Wolf into Soft Sweeps is the way to go about fixing things.

Update: You are thinking of Names only doing Rituals related to their Lores, a full cult is not so limited by pride.

 

[DelightedOne]

I don't think giving tools includes teaching Lores? And on its own Wolf cult would not have Forge lore to conduct ritual. And Wolf is only Winter and Edge.
So unless I am missing something only rituals they should be able to do would be Winter and Edge related?

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Of course it does. If not, they would be useless and a useless gift is no proper gift.

Please remember that Soft has been having lore lessons with Velvet and the rest of the family, meaning the Daughter has been having lore lessons up to level 3.

The Hour worshiped by a cult does not limit the type of ritual or lore they can use, even if a Wolf Cult would favor Winter and Edge, they wouldn't be limited to them.

 

[des-pair-2]

I don't think it is so, but if we assume that Hour Velvet can deal with Stains and with Wolf in general then there is no reason not to do whatever we wish including taking further Stains while we are at it. Velvet will reach Glory and will banish Wolf's sons and will fix Soft, and will micromanage Wolf cult in Ponyville while at it. Is it not a logical conclusion to proposals to minimize damage right now and just leave everything to Hour Velvet? Even when it comes to taking over cult personally, who would lead it after Velvet ascends?

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Please notice that whatever option we pick is the option narratively Velvet picked. The options she goes for informs the priorities she has. Along with the practical calculations, I also don't want Velvet to be the kind of pony to choose Wolf because it is efficient. It is simple as that.

Please remember that Soft has been having lore lessons with Velvet and the rest of the family, meaning the Daughter has been having lore lessons up to level 3.

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She doesn't have any Lores. Except that. When we revived her, we had a choice on what Lore to teach her, and picked to not teach her any.

 

[Portec]

[X] Gift her tools.

Because I can only think of this as the least of the basd options...
And because I want to vote before the time runs out.

 

[DelightedOne]

She doesn't have any Lores.

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She doesn't need to have them to know about them. The lessons apply to all Family members if I recall it correctly.

Tools will be Velvet teaching her the rituals and contextualizing the previous lessons. We did make a primer that could introduce ponies to lore once remember?

When we revived her, we had a choice on what Lore to teach her, and picked to not teach her any.

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Which vote? The closest to that I remember is what she should talk about with her cult and that was for the theme, not a lore.

And completely unrelated but I can't help but be curious.

@OurLadyOfWires is Soft still the only option we have to "pick up the torch" if Velvet dies or did Selene become an option too?

 

[ses]

We haven't taught our family the Lores yet. We're blocked from doing so until Heart 4. Soft has no lores other than STAIN 3.

Tools is the worst option by far. Soft doesn't know what she's doing! She needs Velvet to actually communicate! That means actual leadership not tossing some pocket nukes at them and running off! We've been through this before!

 

[DelightedOne]

We haven't taught our family the Lores yet. We're blocked from doing so until Heart 4.

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???

Stormchaser:
-Lores: Disciple, [SECRET HISTORIES 3] [KNOCK 1]

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You have successfully taught your family about the Lores.

Stormchaser is now a "Disciple", having attained Secret Histories Level 3 and Knock Level 1.

Stormchaser is now "reasonably competent" in identifying the occult. This will keep him safer when he is away from home, but by no means is a guarantee.

Your other daughters have also benefited, but not in a way you can easily quantify.

Further lessons, that will benefit everypony at the same time, will require all your Lores to be at level 4.

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Hello? What do you mean by that?

 

[ses]

-[] [SOCIAL] Teach Rarity, and make her a Seeker.
-[] [SOCIAL] Teach Jade. (Already a Seeker)
-[] [SOCIAL] Teach Fluttershy, and make her a Disciple. (Forbidden)
-[] [SOCIAL] Teach your family the Lores. (Requires "all Lores" to be Level 4 or higher, affects your entire family)

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-[] [SOCIAL] Teach your family the Lores. (Requires "all Lores" to be Level 4 or higher, affects your entire family)

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Soft has never recieved Lore instructions and you can consult the character sheet to confirm that. Her only lore is YOUKNOWWHATYOUDID 3

 

[DelightedOne]

Soft has never recieved Lore instructions and you can consult the character sheet to confirm that. Her only lore is YOUKNOWWHATYOUDID 3

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The contact list is from Velvet's point of view and as I already have shown

You have successfully taught your family about the Lores.

Your other daughters have also benefited, but not in a way you can easily quantify.

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that means we can't see what the lessons did.

 

[Nevermort]

Why are you assuming they will be dumping ash-ghouls on our doorstep? What need do they have for ash-ghouls? Their self-appointed purpose is to serve Soft Sweeps, does Soft Sweeps need Ash Ghouls for something?

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I mean if we taught it to them then logical conclusion is perhaps Velvet need it for something? People generally don't need dead mice but cats still bring them sometimes to their owners, why cults would be different?

Update: You are thinking of Names only doing Rituals related to their Lores, a full cult is not so limited by pride.

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Woodhoof club had all lores because Master was able to teach all lores. Same for Bureau and Velvet. Even Gardeners got many members from original Woodhoof club with different lores.
But Soft does not know all Lores, she is not Velvet and she is not Name, where they are supposed to get lores? Plus they are very specific group so I would not be surprised if Soft chose only those who already had their lores converted to Wolf.

She doesn't need to have them to know about them. The lessons apply to all Family members if I recall it correctly.

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Being vaguely aware about Lores does not help with using them or teaching them to others? You need to actually have them. Soft is Wolf 3, she does not have any other Lores.

 

[SilentPencil]

[X] Gift her freedom.
[X] Gift her influence.

 

[des-pair-2]

Which vote? The closest to that I remember is what she should talk about with her cult and that was for the theme, not a lore.

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It took a while, but I found it.

[] [A Daughter]

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This is what we picked. And while I concede that later it is said she learns just like other family members, the other options were made with the expectation that she will be used like a normal follower. That is to say, right now her Lore skills are about as vague as Silky's.

Edit: Right, this vote was after the Changeling Massacre, not after her death. My apologies.

 

[DelightedOne]

Being vaguely aware about Lores does not help with using them or teaching them to others? You need to actually have them. Soft is Wolf 3, she does not have any other Lores.

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Already answered that.

Tools will be Velvet teaching her the rituals and contextualizing the previous lessons. We did make a primer that could introduce ponies to lore once remember?

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This is a gift. If we give her Tools we will also tell her how to use them, even give pretty instructions if it is necessary.

Please, do not think Tools will be a "gotcha" choice where the Wolf cult has the rituals but gets the Incompetent Celebrant malus.

 

[ses]

This is a gift. If we give her Tools we will also tell her how to use them, even give pretty instructions if it is necessary.

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-You will not give her any directions of what to do, exactly. And she will understand that you trust her, and that this is a test.

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She will explicitly not receive any instructions about the wider metaphysics of the setting or literally anything except how to use rituals.

 

[DelightedOne]

This is what we picked. And while I concede that later it is said she learns just like other family members, the other options were made with the expectation that she will be used like a normal follower.

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Ah, I got it now. The vote do decide how we would use her.
You said "when we revived her" so I thought it was something else.

You do remember that was 5 turns before her death right? And that she would have followed regular lore mechanics if not for the Seed?

That is to say, right now her Lore skills are about as vague as Silky's.

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And don't you think that is suspicious when we know she had Heart? The Stain is clearly masking all of her natural lore behind the influence of the Wolf.

And considering Silky got a Cutie Mark with all the lores I'm pretty sure the level 4 lessons will reveal very familiar affinities.

She will explicitly not receive any instructions about the wider metaphysics of the setting or literally anything except how to use rituals.

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Wasn't that refering to how Velvet won't tell her what to do with the knowledge? And that anything she does with the knowledge will be part of the test?

That is how I thought it would go. The option talks about it being a show of trust so Tools being a literal test makes sense.

 

[Venerable Ro]

[X] Gift her freedom.

Active direction is by far the preferred choice over self-taught cultists trying to interpret whatever oracular reactions an unknowing Soft would have to the other options.

 

[spiderhellian]

We already know that reaching a non-Wolf ending undoes the Stains because we were explicitly told that going up to 6/7 stains would not block other endings and that doing so would not alter the epilogue of the other endings. Therefore the Stains must get undone by other endings.

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I don't agree with the inference or chain of logic here.

We're not going to be surprised by something that has very long term consequences. In the context of that statement, we're not going to do a sacrament with Mareinette and wind up forced into an epilogue that is an all you can eat buffet for Alukites.

….Stains are regrettable actions. They're the opposite of surprising long term consequences, that's their very nature. Assuming they'll be easily disposed of in-epilogue seems deeply overconfident.

 

[Arrkhon]

So why are people so adamant against helping this cult out anyway? Outside of killing members that get overly intense they are a therapy group that helps them manage their pain by turning it into a sign of love for what they lost, their direction seems to be influenced by Harmony significantly more than the Wolf and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they could end up soothing the Wolf way down the line in the epilogue

 

[ses]

I don't agree with the inference or chain of logic here.

We're not going to be surprised by something that has very long term consequences. In the context of that statement, we're not going to do a sacrament with Mareinette and wind up forced into an epilogue that is an all you can eat buffet for Alukites.

….Stains are regrettable actions. They're the opposite of surprising long term consequences, that's their very nature. Assuming they'll be easily disposed of in-epilogue seems deeply overconfident.

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I should clarify that I don't think that the consequences of their actions will be undone, but that the Stains as ongoing effects will stop existing after Velvet dies or ascends. The text is very clear that if Velvet dies the Stains will stop existing, and ascending would follow the same logic as well. So the Ashen Wastes would still be the Ashen Wastes, but would no longer have Ash stalking them. And the societal effects of the Catastrophe's aftermath would still be a thing but the -5 would go away. So on and so forth.

The core point is that we are not forced to go through some special sidequest requiring hurting Soft Sweeps just for the sake of not going into the epilogue with Stains making Hour Velvet "corrupted". The Glory Ending is the Glory Ending. Not that the consequences that have already occurred will be undone.

 

[Sk1lz3r]

Okay so the vote tally tool is not counting my vote. Anyone know what I did wrong in my

-snip-

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previous post?

 

[Arrkhon]

Okay so the vote tally tool is not counting my vote. Anyone know what I did wrong in my

previous post?

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You didn't press the new tally button, by default it shows the last tally rather than making a new one

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

We are at most 3-4 turns away from the final mission. Another cult does nothing for us.

 

[ses]

We are at most 3-4 turns away from the final mission. Another cult does nothing for us.

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We are 4 turns away from having a cult at all with the Bureau. If you're so pessimistic on turns until All In then dont use the phrase "Another" cult, since this cult comes online faster than the one you dont think will be online at all. The entire reason we voted for a prisoner this turn is because we DONT think that 3 turns is enough for All In. We're capturing a prisoner for Mareinette, we're Soothing the Night with Selene AP, and we're teaching the Bureau with our Commissioner action. We've already committed to not going All In within the next three turns in three different ways.

 

[spiderhellian]

I should clarify that I don't think that the consequences of their actions will be undone, but that the Stains as ongoing effects will stop existing after Velvet dies or ascends. The text is very clear that if Velvet dies the Stains will stop existing, and ascending would follow the same logic as well. So the Ashen Wastes would still be the Ashen Wastes, but would no longer have Ash stalking them. And the societal effects of the Catastrophe's aftermath would still be a thing but the -5 would go away. So on and so forth.

The core point is that we are not forced to go through some special sidequest requiring hurting Soft Sweeps just for the sake of not going into the epilogue with Stains making Hour Velvet "corrupted". The Glory Ending is the Glory Ending. Not that the consequences that have already occurred will be undone.

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Where are you getting that the Stains — Evil et al — will stop existing if Velvet does? That's news to me, and generally would surprise me.

 

[Pittauro]

If we get Moth 6 I'm guessing more a comfortable 8 months.

Getting to Mastery is hard without Velvet's cheating.

Especially if we have Velvet sabotage Celestia's progess. Stuff like spending a Bureau action while we have a SH influence to visit the royal archives or bedroom and steal any high level lantern books. Also having an expedition to steal the Watchpony's Mirror.

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We disagree on just how much harder it would be for Celestia.

You forget she cheats too.

comparing to Velvet, She has

1) functionally infinite bits and resources
2) effectively infinite servant actions, which she can probably also use to get books and artifacts, by buying them or even expropriating them from known holders in some cases.
3) She's an Alicorn, half of an Outsider, with multiple innate affinities, which already breaks the normal rules. That has to count for something
4) She's in possession of what's likely a tier 7 (or at least 6) lantern artifact.

You're also still assuming she needs different sources for more scraps, but we have no idea how her ranking up works. For all we know she gets an automatic level per turn, though my guess is that she has a simple single roll per turn, with a slowly increasing DC.

One level each turn is the very worst case scenario. But I'd be surprised if it took her more than 2 turns per level on average to reach lvl 6.

and I think stealing the Mirror is just too risky, personally.

I recall a situation where I offered you guys to "tell Stormchaser everything". And the in-character result would be an argument/fight that made me physically ill to write. Pretty sure I unthreadmarked that, back in the other site, and moved the story in another direction.

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oh, I remember now! I completely forgot that tidbit.

Narratively I think it was the opposite here.

But then again narratively the implications of our/Velvet's choices are terrible on this.

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there's no interpreting things here. Soft killed herself out of despair/agony, and the Wolf IS despair/agony.

and Velvet said no, and used what control she has of Wolfy stuff through a regrettable action to force Soft to stay alive. It was very much NOT what the Wolf intended... but then again, living in pain IS wolfy, so it wasn't going against its nature THAT much i suppose.

in many ways, the Hours ARE the concepts they represent, after all. the fact some good things can come out of extremely negative/evil events does not make them good.

I'm pretty sure it requires a Regrettable Action to empower Soft Sweeps (she's not the Witch and the Sister anyways she just one single being not two, it's more like learning a lore, just remember our talk with Comet on that kind of change), and we're not (unfortunately) doing a Regrettable Action this turn.

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It's as usual bad that you're unhappy we're not taking an RA... but yeah, we've been told this is NOT really a stain, so we shouldn't quite think of it as being as bad as a normal stain.

The way I see it, a stain makes Soft behave worse because she's being corrupted. I expect this is more Soft becoming "naturally" more ruthless instead, because that's what it takes to help Velvet.

Possibly, or maybe Velvet holding a majority means she's broadly in charge.

One must understand the laws first in order to know how to change them afterall.

Shugs, we really don't know at the moment.

Not without Inspiration or studying our Stain.

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That's like saying that to beat Sauron you should use the One Ring against him.

Frodo DID use the ring, but always as a last resort, AND in the end he basically fell to it, with them only managing to destroy it BY ACCIDENT due to Gollum's intervention.

wanting to do more RAs to understand what they do is like wanting to use the One Ring to understand Sauron. It's nor just foolish, it's outright stupid and self-defeating.

RAs are what we do when the alternative is not affordable.

Of course, this vote is NOT about an ACTUAL stain, and there's no RA involved (unless we take back our offer to Soft of course).

2.Bird said there is a hypothetical future where we could "corrupt" the Wolf back. Just like there as a future where Alicornae Luna existed(but that is just my take).

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I believe it, because nothing is set in stone. Supposedly the Worms were not always the monstruosity they are today, and the Wolf's origins are in the supposedly benevolent Sun-in-Splendor.

What's been corrupted can be redeemed, that's the message of the MLP part of this crossover.

But... let us all remember this is also CS, and that it works both ways. Good can redeem evil, but Evil CAN corrupt Good.

Angels can fall, see Lucifer or Saruman (he's basically an angel anyway), and an evil lord can feel regret (see Darth Vader in the very end).

Even more specifically, at least for why I'm tempted to vote for it, is that whenever we've asked about "hey do we know enough about RAs to try and figure out how to remove the stains" the answer has always been "you don't understand enough about the nature of the stains to try". So this very well may be the only opportunity we have to gain enough information about the stains to learn if/how they might be eventually removed (even if it takes a Harmony blast to the face) without actually. You know. Birthing another Wolf and making the world an objectively worse and more evil place.

Like, the fact that it ordinarily requires us to pass the point of "the filth is greater than what remains" and the nature of the Wolf makes me suspicious that, under normal circumstances, the information that we'd gain from passing that point would also be something we would no longer be able to act upon after passing that point of no return.

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I'm reminded of something I read in a Naruto Fanfic, "Lighting up the dark".

"So when I was back at the Academy, there was this one gorgeous Nara girl. Luscious black hair down to here. Sparkling amber eyes. Early bloomer. You get the idea. Obviously, I asked her out every other day. So eventually, she got fed up and told me that she only dated the smartest kids. If I wanted to date her, I had to prove how smart I was by passing the Nara Test the fair way, by studying rather than cheating."

"What's a Nara test?"

"There was this snotty Nara woman who decided that it wasn't good enough for her kids to 'only' get the same full marks as everyone else, so she demanded a special test to show everyone what geniuses they were. The kids themselves were as mortified as you can imagine, but she was so relentlessly obnoxious that eventually she got her way. Since then, assuming the Academy's still running it, the brightest kids sometimes get invited to take this optional crazy-hard test. If they pass, odds are they'll end up in one of the jōnin-led teams even if, say, their taijutsu scores stink to high heaven."

Naruto, of course, not only never got invited, but hadn't even been told such a test existed. He wondered, now, how many other doors had been closed to him without him ever knowing. How many others were yet to close.

"So there you have it," Jiraiya said, oblivious. "Either I prove I'm a genius, or I had better not so much as look at her again. Now, being me, which is to say the paragon of confidence and courage, I accept those conditions on the spot.'

"Perverted One," Naruto said impatiently, "is there a point to this story?"

"Hush, you. I'm building up to a valuable life lesson here. Now, do you know what she does the second I tell her I'll beat that test of hers fair and square?"

"Go on."

"Before I can leave, she steps between me and the door, and tells me all the answers."

Naruto took a second to absorb this.

"Ouch."

"Yeah," Jiraiya said. "How she got hold of them, we will never know. It's almost as if she was a ninja. But the point is, the second I heard those answers, I could no longer use the test to prove my book smarts.

"Enlightenment is exactly like that, except you can't pull any clever tricks like stealing the exam papers in advance so they have to change the content. Once you've got the answer, you're locked out of finding it the way that actually gets you enlightened."

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Short version: The way you get to an answer might very well count MORE than the answer itself. This is especially possible with "metaphysical" problems.

It's very much possible that, for example, the way to remove the Stains requires us to not be corrupted, or even to not know about them.

Another example: Hercules' disney movie, actually. Hercules wanted to become a hero to reunite with Zeus in Olympus, but to become a Hero he needed to, well, do heroic things for selfless reasons.

He only achieves godhood (before giving it up again) when he nearly gives up his life to save his love.

If he had known that he'd survive the attempt... he probably would have failed, because success required him to do the "heroic" thing for "heroic" reasons.

Now, OF COURSE we don't actually know that the knowledge of stains works like that... but it would actually be really fitting if, normally, getting to 4 stains will reveal to you that the way to remove stains was to not get that many stains.

Like, imagine if the solution was as simple as "don't do RAs for enough time and your soul will slowly clean itself, as long as you don't go too far in the first place"!

That said... THIS TIME it's not actually an RA that would give us an answer, so in that case it would probably not be as bad for us to learn.

Some stories like to say that true evil can't understand good, because to REALLY understand good is to be good.

What if here it's the opposite?

Were we? Or were only told that it wouldn't prevent us from getting the Glory ending, which is not the same thing as "this will not change the epilogue"?

(this is a genuine question, I do not remember)

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yeah, that's what I assumed actually. Like, in Mass Effect 3 you get different flavours of the "Same" ending, but with more or less destruction and death to your allies depending on everything that came BEFORE the actual ending. I assumed something like that.

I mean, I doubt a Glory ending with Celestia, Luna, Cadance and Twilight dead would be the same as a Glory ending with them alive and happy, for example.

I was more asking for a quote, but I believe I found the one you are referencing anyway.


I would like to point out that Bird said that he'd warn us if it's something sufficiently unpredictable. The Wolves are many things, but the only aspect in which they are unpredictable is the "how", not the "what". It is, in fact, extremely predictable that more Wolves = the world becomes a worse place.

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also very much this.

The Wheel was a god-from-Stone. We don't understand its nature enough to say what exactly that means.

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easiest read is that Gods from Stone are basically the gods of the pre-historic world, before Humanity developed Reason, which can be equated to enlightenment, and probably the advent of the Gods-From-Light.

and then we have the Gods-from-blood and the Gods-from-Flesh, basically a representation of Humanity's greatest tragedies (they're born from sacrifice) and, well, "the greatest of humanity" basically.

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I'll continue to catch up to the discussion later