Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

[Faralis]

very funny to read,how soviet belived in powerfull England plot!

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In paper, the UK was the most powerful empire in the world atm. We know they were almost ruined by WWI, but they didn't. And it's just 3 or 4 years since the brits stopped officially supporting the Whites.

Is an over exaggeration, but they had reasons to distrust the brits.

Weimar was already building "tractors" in the SU, so no idea why they included them in the conspiracy.

 

[Imperator Pax]

That's one that we should be seeing more of is socially English conspiracies were a popular fear of the time because of London / the British empire s hitherto dominant capital financial position

Germany and France both also got hit with this to a lesser extent due to cultural stigma / inertia

 

[ATP]

In paper, the UK was the most powerful empire in the world atm. We know they were almost ruined by WWI, but they didn't. And it's just 3 or 4 years since the brits stopped officially supporting the Whites.

Is an over exaggeration, but they had reasons to distrust the brits.

Weimar was already building "tractors" in the SU, so no idea why they included them in the conspiracy.

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Yes.Book i mentioned was made on soviet intelligence papers which stopped to be secret,and soviets really belived that there is british mastermind which control both Germany and Poland as if they were their puppets.
Which is bullshit - but soviets really belived it.

That's one that we should be seeing more of is socially English conspiracies were a popular fear of the time because of London / the British empire s hitherto dominant capital financial position

Germany and France both also got hit with this to a lesser extent due to cultural stigma / inertia

Click to shrink...

Agree,althought London City arleady was replaced by NY Wall Street as dominant financial position.
Another thing - soviet agent i mentioned should go to China and Tibet next year.Here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Roerich&ved=2ahUKEwiHiZmomcOIAxXuCRAIHd-0LoQQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Szlb8RjKiKo9tFovh3nmX

Dude really belived that he could create buddhism which could support soviets,which,of course,was bullshit.
But - you could use his expedition as comic relief.

And most of his paintings are good.

 

[Imperator Pax]

"he's an artist, he paints fine, but boy are his ideas queer." - Young Carter probably.

 

[Imperator Pax]

April 1924
The 10th ​Division of the Army had reached strength on schedule for the summer drill... it was just that the drill the previous year had started a little earlier than originally laid out. Right now they were herewith 1st​. The active portions of the 5th​ were currently on the border with Hupeh, and the 7th​ were with Bill at the lake. It was a fairly typical deployment... at least it was on paper. Typical meant most would mean that the reading would be largely taken in stride.

The reality though was what having the10th​ at strength meant. Percy had reminded him that Xian's triangular divisions were roughly equivalent in size to British ones. Admittedly there were slight differences but by and large it was a close enough thing. "We don't have a navy," Or if he had wanted to be an asshole he could have pointed out the lack of outstanding debt to the United States which was something of a repeated topic of discussion in Europe... but the Brits at least seemed good for the money unlike the French.

"You might one day."

"I respect my neighbors borders as long as they respect mine. I respect their property when they respect mine."

"But you do carry a very large stick," Percy returned borrowing from one of Teddy Roosevelt's stump speech arguments, "You have gunboats now, that is a start."

He bit down at the riposte as Percy scored the point, because that was true, and the expedition had been a thing, "Cole has riverine craft that frankly will need something other than the 1PDRs they were built with," The 1PDR had been on cutters and small navy boats when he'd gotten to the Philippines and even though the Army had taken them to war, and Black Jack had had them in Europe too, they were long in the tooth. The issue had been that Cullen had been in the process of looking at other artillery... the 25mm autocannon had still been in development, the 3 inchers of the regular army had been against his preference and the heavier 122mm with its better high explosive was not ready. The latter had currently the least amount of work put into it, but given time and probably ten years then they'd have something that met his standards, "If any of us will have a navy, it will be Powell, and I wish him all the luck for that endeavor." He'd need it, Allen expected, Navies seemed impossibly expensive things... but then ten years ago he would have thought ten divisions would have been too great a burden financially to support... but then the war in Europe had occurred "So the 10th​?"

"Its not so much the tenth, though their timing could hardly be missed," Percy stated, "Its the question of what goes from here," The englishman remarked. "And I will not deny that Minister Schurman," Always Minister not Doctor from the English bluebloods, but he supposed that the South was not that different in the distinction either... "has also questions. You plan to expand."

"And if we do it will be on a similar time frame, but for the moment we expect no new divisions." He paused, and offered the englishman an out, if he needed one, "Is this about Zhang?"

"In part yes, I understand that whatever complaints exist between Mukden Xian are unlikely to come to blows. And," Percy paused, " to be certain Zhang has ties to America, and similar positive sentiments exist with Japan, even with the passing of Prince Yamagata. Zhang purchases a great deal of materiel."

"From Britain."

"Yes, of course, but Germany and Italy as well. He enjoys the benefit of international trade, which are within the letter of the law," He might protested the Jordan embargo as not being the law but there was little point for as Percy had just outlined for all the griping done about enforcement in the interests of business, and politics the letter of the law rather than Jordan's intentions were the important thing... even the letter was flaunted frequently enough. "Zhang's arsenals, his factories they're productive... and its heavy industry. I don't need to point that out to you of course, but it exasperates the divide with the south, where some of my colleagues in the Foreign Service are already drawing comparisons between Northern Italy and Southern Italy." Which had been something that probably had been bound to happen, but also highlighted the change in opinions voiced by the British diplomats. "But it also brings to mind concerns that China is going to break apart, not just north and south but that the north will splinter unless something is done. The Chinese themselves understand this from their own history spawning that idiom about kingdoms dividing."

Japan been worried about that as well. As had the States. China, her myriad of provinces were densely peopled. It had been hard in the early years for the Cadre to grasp what administering even a 'small' Chinese province entailed... and the devastation of China's civil war in their grandfathers' days when the states had similarly been enjoined in conflict.

Allen stood up, and rifled through a series of papers. All intended for public disclosure all documents for which the cadre planners, and the general staff had furnished to each other, and also to the legislature's lower house, "I cannot speak to that," For the truth was domestic sentiment was complicated... efforts to bring the south back into line had bled the north of treasure and men and more to the point had failed. Yunnan was just the most conspicuous, and every year Manchuria seemed further and further distant from Peking... and xian as well regardless for which the salt gable and other taxes were sent to the beiyang government in the capital. It was the public sentiment of the north which grew disaffected with the idea of a parliament of fools. "Tenth division is up. If we plan to establish further divisions, it will follow something along this model," The public records were clear on the procedure at this point.

Percy understood that, "Yes John Allen, I was here for when the process was begun. Zhang has 27 Brigades now." Twenty seven brigades for the three provinces of Manchuria, which came out to about a brigade per million people, if one only counted army, "and then the air force and his small navy." Thus Zhang Tsolin on paper had 9Divisions under his command, and a sizable air force to represent a wealthy industrialized small country the likes of Manchuria, but there were complicating factors... "But that's the example, isn't it? The planned expansion will be more than two brigades, or two divisions even. You'll lay it out so everyone will know its coming, but that transparency for whatever it wins you with the public, is not as reassuring to people outside Xian as you might think."

and yet, while it was sometimes hard to discern the new president's feelings but Hughes generally seemed favorable to the cadre's influence both here, and Powell's work as head of the MAK. Hughes also was favorably disposed to Britain thus it plausible that a cordon around the soviets was practicable. What Harding's death meant... well the Cadre was not expecting a full break from isolationist talk but Coolidge did not seem likely to extend recognition to the bandits in moscow which was a relief.

 

[ATP]

"he's an artist, he paints fine, but boy are his ideas queer." - Young Carter probably.

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Yup.Buddhist-leninism is queer,no matter how you look at it,becouse dude really tried to sell locals in China and Tibet that Lenin is Maitreia which was supposed to come for buddhists !

That aside - you could buy cheaply some small naval gun for your gunboats from A-H or germany,for example

Škoda 7 cm guns - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Skoda 66mm naval gun,should be enough for river warships.
Here,i found list of most naval guns used :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_guns_by_caliber&ved=2ahUKEwjw8qyRuY-PAxXJgSoKHeEJJcUQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw05rO2pg8DMZphQjLm4OiYw

You should found something there for your boats !

P.S Roerih claimed,that brits tried to sabotage his expedition,here it could be done by your americans!
By the way - maybe you made Shamballa and Agharta real in your story? Himmler belived in second,and even send at least 3 expedition to Tibet to ally with them! but - it would be before 1939,not in 1924.

 

[Unik]

How hard is administering China, let alone a province? Are the provinces that huge and powerful? Btw how is the Cadre administering their zone of control and how is the logistics of the army at the moment?

 

[Imperator Pax]

How hard is administering China, let alone a province? Are the provinces that huge and powerful? Btw how is the Cadre administering their zone of control and how is the logistics of the army at the moment?

Click to shrink...

The simple answer is railways... and yes the biggest issue with Chinese administration is that in this period is that infrastructure both in material and manpower had been neglected for so long that there were provinces that had degenerated to the point where some counties in Sichuan were fielding local armies in the tens of thousands of troops its not that they're powerful per se its that the lack of effective centralized bureaucracy and infrastructure meant that force projection in most provinces never mind the the post Yuan Shikai Beiyang government in Beijing just lacked the ability to stop seasonal warfare which ussually ended up destroying or at least preventing maintenance on dikes and roadways b/c these provincial armies frequently impressed laborers as baggage carriers for their campaigns.

For the Cadre this is why the railways are so important because it largely obviates the traditional importance of baggage carriers as well as goes into administration since the railways started as a way to carry goods, tax revenue and provide postal services and the rail allows a reliable functionally all weather way to move both in between counties in a province, and in between provinces i.e. between Shansi and Shensi or out west through Gansu, or into Tibet to Lhasa There is also the industrial urbanization component which weakens though not all together eliminates the importance of seasonal work which reinforces centralized leadership [and again all of us are used to both the Post War bureaucratic expansion and also a much more rapid flow of information across the bureaucracy, and public spheres]

 

[Imperator Pax]

1924
His attention lifted from the note as the Texan spoke up, "That from Louie?" He questioned, as Allen recognized he should have been looking at other time tables...mostly for new automotive engines larger more powerful V8 and Edsel's V12. There were a lot of talks going on about such things for combat cars as well as pushing the envelope with the tanks... they had taken the first one over the winter to see what Edsel's engine would do with in a british mark radio carrier.. not that the marks were all that useful for them. Griswold thought the results had been promising in the paper he'd put out. "Well?"

Bill was the only one who called him that, Dickie was what everyone else close enough did. It was hard to fathom that it had been eight years since the first letter they'd received by a then midshipman. A lot had changed in those years, at least in China. Britain too, Louis hadn't needed George the Fifth to catch a bullet in the arm to distrust the Bolsheviks. Of course the Russians were still fighting sporadically with blacks, greens, and the whites. Though admittedly the borders with the latter had stabilized. The conflict in the west had taken priority with the Baltics, and Poland, and the Ukraine. There had been some squabbling too with the Turks, but it didn't seemed to have amounted to much.

It wasn't really their business. "It is," He finally responded before putting it aside, "Just the usual, come visit England, and all that. I've half a mind to send you, and Phillips." Griswold was acting like a bloody menace with his tanks especially with him having received a few more of Edsel's V12 Diesels to play with.

"Yan is a bit worried about Zhang actually doing something." when the summer started.

"What are he and Griswold jousting with their tanks now?" He was only half joking. The big man of Manchuria might not have gone to school, but he liked every new industrial means of war, whether it was armored trains, tanks, or airplanes. He'd been on a big shopping trip to the former Hapsburg lands more than once. Japan was happy to use Manchurian troops to shore up their legitimacy in 'protecting' their de facto gains further north from the Bolsheviks. Yan really didn't like the reds, but also didn't trust Zhang so it wasn't like this w as new, "Really whats the problem?"

"That was my response at first too, but he's right, Zhang does have a lot of guys, and as far as Manchuria is concerned that 'arms embargo' ain't worth shit." Bill replied. "All those Skoda guns he's brought over. His new Mauser." The list went on... and Zhang was a tall fella he could easily control the full power Mauser cartridge.

Oh the Japanese Legation had claimed left right and center that they weren't exporting arms into China, but everyone knew they were lying. It would have been one thing if it had just been Zhang... still would have been a hard sale but there were a lot of Arisakas, and even more Muratas floating around in Shandong, never mind parts south. Absolutely none of that was why Yan distrusted the Japanese. Ironic since Yan still pushed a lot of doctrine inline with Japanese... it was the whole reason the carbines had Enfield like bayonets. Thus why they even bothered still doing bayonet drill... well that and the reality of horse charges still being a thing in this part of the world... and that the Red Cavalry seemed to preen pretty for pictures at least.

"Alright, and?" He asked. Asa member of the cadre it wasn't like Yan couldn't have brought this up... which he probably would. No this was probably him feeling out whatever it was. "What does he want?"

"You really need to ask?"

"I want to hear you say it." He replied.

"Statuorily the Reserves, is authorized to a strength of one hundred thousand men. There are five divisions presently organized." Each of which contained three regiments which entailed two thousand infantry privates who could be called upon. It was an all volunteer force, but it was also part time, like the state militia state side even if in practice the reserve divisions were not strictly territorial guards divisions...the regiments were geographically located by garrison.

"We've talked about standing a division up for Kokonur." Allen replied, but the truth was that they just weren't there yet... not a full 'national guard' division That was about the only thing the committee could agree on. There ostensibly plans for next years new five year plan, but right now those were also still in committee. This whole five year plan thing was ... well this one was mostly about trying to get enough infrastructure to set up to make it possible todo anything at all outside of the existing power bases. "The logistics just aren't there yet. The brigades that exist should be able to support Kansu," The division responsible for, "if they need to do something." There was some lingering animosity with the Tibetans down south that was probably going to flare up. Then again it might not but like with Yan's distrust of Zhang, "We're due for a fight anyway." It was a wonder the fighting on the coast, and Zhili hadn't spilled over given Wu had control of Hanyang.

"Its that too," Bill replied, "But he thinks Wu and Zhang are going to go at it again."

Allen bit a curse down, at the reiteration because "Thats the last thing we need." He muttered in lieu of. Wu was trickier than Zhang, when you got right down to it. Neither had messed with free transit going to coastal ports, but it had always been a precarious thing and tenuous agreements during the last war had always felt as if they'd collapse at any minute. It made people nervous. That wasn't exactly conducive to business... and even though they were far from just businessmen now, they had been closer to those roots in 1922."Alright what then, I shall ask again, does he want for christmas?" Never mind it wasn't even July yet... and never mind still that they'd probably start an avalanche within the cadre over which and what should have priority.

Bill shrugged at the quip. "I don't think there is any heading it off." There had after all been war scares a few times now... the lincheng outrage the year before had probably put pressure on both sides to back down especially as shrill nonsense spewed out from Shanghai... but things had been left to simmer. "our best option is to reassure people that things are stable. We don't have to have a division in kokonur just yet, but the Guard is needed to deal with other problems." The texan was meandering ... wandering around all the points that he'd no doubt have to hit for swinging different members of the Cadre and whose votes would be needed.

In the grand scheme of things... well it was complicated being a legislature, controlling the purse strings for an army made their lives complicated in a way they'd never imagined. "We are obliged to pay for the army,"

"No doubt, and truthfully," Bill helped himself to a glass and the decanter, "most of our fella figure the British statute ... the ideas that if the law says we should have X at a certain strength we ought to be right up on it." He poured, took a breath, "Shit, Hodges being dead makes a mess of things... we let him handle Tibet for so long cause of the war," In Europe, "And now that he's gone... now that the war is over... its a mess out there, and-" And there had been the Foreign Secretary running off at the mouth during Lloyd George's tenure... and even though Curzon was out... "We need to be more involved there."

"I know that." Allen replied, but they didn't have anyone... and Lhasa was one thing. It was majority Han merchants, and it was a commercial center but the surrounding countryside was different. "Peking says we're the legal government," That Tibet officially had a Xian style provincial constitution and had county level bureaucrats in the eastern portion of the country, "but I don't know if Curzon ever thought about it like that... or hell maybe he did, but that would just raise a mess of other questions." Bill raised the glass in agreement. The Government in India similarly had distanced itself from the Simla question as well... they hadn't wanted to wade into the question of exactly how recognition of governments in China was supposed to work... and exactly what 'autonomous states' inside of a suzerain were supposed to be doing... that was probably the smart thing given how it might effect British Imperial Foreign Policy... not just for India but on Canada, and South Africa and the Anzac lot.


It was a detail that couldn't be ignored... despite plenty of people doing that. The British Empire was not monolithic... and even whitehall was no longer just two old parties.
--
Notes: the Liberty Tank ran off a wartime v12 outputting 300 horsepower, the Mark VII really doesn't do much for the cadre its big its heavy so the ones in inventory are mostly test beds for radio carrier / command vehicles / recovery vehicles theyre not being used as 'tanks' but they're also being used to test out more powerful engines even though truthfully at this point in time the Liberty V12 is actually still quite competitive but this will eventually lead to Xian's standard V 12 diesel tank engine and eventually heavy truck engine particularly of the post war years.

 

[ATP]

In 1924 Skoda arleady had new version of their 100mm howitzer,and many other things.Here,Skoda weapons from interwar period,you could choose something for your China :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Czechoslovakia_interwar_period_weapons&ved=2ahUKEwimo_mn-6qPAxXTHBAIHW3wAzEQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3plXg2_uBbvAZDPoGCsDYp

Especially,if they fall on schedule in 1938 - you could get those weapons cheap.

Speaking about cheap weapon for your China - i read,that german HC Blucher was sunk in 1940 by norwegians using old A-H naval guns they buyed cheaply after WW1.
You could buy some for your shore defense,too.

 

[Imperator Pax]

1924

Two hours after he had left the meeting Allen had taken the inner city train line to his next appointment. The new elecetric inter urban had opened the year before into what had once been part of the Manchu city. Now it was the industrial district, built up by the infl;ux of of money driven by the need for goods to expoirt to the entente. Ironically despite being the city old buddha had run for as the eight nation expedition had marched on Peking, the hui here had been the ones to butcher most of the Manchus. There weren't hardly any original ones left from before the Xinhai revolution. That made Xian's hui different from most... of course that had been before...

A lot had happened. It had been twenty years since Russia and Japan had gotten into it. It'd been nearly ten since Bai Lang had tried to make a run west across the country. He'd raged at the lack of revolutionary sentiment, and lack of republican leanings of the hui... before a sniper's bullet had broken the wolf's jaw.

Bai Lang had dropped in a cloud of blood in a summer heat... some of his men had pulled him clear and broken from the fighting... but they'd been running in foreign country. Allen still wasn't sure which of the cousins had gotten their head chopped off for trophy taking, but it didn't really matter a decade down the road.

There were men from all races in factory coveralls, and the place smell of methyl, and the rest of industrial work from the provinces naptha supplies. The no. 217 plant was up and running at full capacity, or near enough that the difference couldn't be told. It didn't change the fact that the way you got around the country was by railroad. They were building normal highways, but it was easier, faster, and less hassle to ship via rail most of the time.

At the core of the infantry division were three regiments, who's core were three infantry battalions. Several hundred men could really only practically be moved by train quickly, that was just obvious. The roads just weren't up to it, but that might not always be the case. In the mean time there was always exporting synthetic rubber, and plenty of other products of heavy chemical industry. It was not just here of course, Taiyuan had expanded similarly with its ammunition production. in truth he suspected that Yan would have likely tried todo so even if they hadn't been here, but there was something to be said for scale production.

"How are we doing?" He asked easily turning to the staff officer at his right.

"I pushed the notice to senior officers." The men who had the experience to know what to expect, but also hopefully the wisdom to be on their toes for new developments. "Fuel stocks and vehicle readiness will be replied to by monday." He gave the young staff officer a nod. "Should I push recall orders to the men at training?"

"No." No if it came to that Allen would get on a train and up to the camp himself to brief the men there and then bring them back east personally. "Make sure fuel and ammunition is ready if we end up with a fight. Armored Cars had been used during the fighting in Shanghai but that had been brief, one of the lessons that had not been learned there for lack of exposure had been the question of weight.

Ford's trucks were good in their factory layout, but putting additional weight, such up engine-ing them, or increasing weight by the addition of armor put further wear on the suspension. That lead to increased wear and tear on the machines, which lead to breakages. That was why they preferred relying on rail car and flat bed transport to fortified step off points which operated from the conventional wisdom that any head on attack needed overwhelming firepower. On the southern border this was the Bashan defensive cordon that was aimed at blunting any attempt by a Szechwanese warlord from rallying enough manpower to be a danger... but Szechwan remained divided showing no signs that the province would unify any time soon.

On the north china plain maneuver was still staged from fortified posts but had started much later ironically. Zhengzhou facing south with the river looked into problems with the honanese. It was Zhengzhou where they were going to start rolling cars to if things didn't start calming down, which from the angry posturing going over the wires didn't seem too likely.

He took a breath, glanced sideways "The engine." Allen questioned making a point of changing the subject back to the official business at hand.

The Engines in this case were Edsel's V12 diesel, which were mounted for the moment ETS test vehicles. The Racers had settled on the torsion bar for the suspension for overland reliability. "It represents a much more reliable option than the British option," But then the British tank had been operating under war time constraints so that was something, it was a bit ironic that the engine Edsel wanted to power tractors... something old man Ford didn't want had such a robust performance for a war side application... but it was also true that the V12 might actually be too much engine for most tractor work... it was hard to say given the size of most farms, especially after the farm crash when the war had ended, "We don't have enough of them, but we haven't had a problem with coolant," Oil, "Starting them in the cold might be an issue according to one report."

That would be something to watch for he supposed. "Can they be pushed to Zhengzhou?"

"In theory yes, in practice, they've heavy, our biggest concern will be the limitations on w;here we would be able to ford, as bridges could not feasibly support their weight." That was the advantage of up armoring Ford's cars and putting machine guns in turrets was that they were only so so heavy... something built with tracks and with purpose build armor plate massed more.

"Are you in agreement with the consensus?"

"Wheeled vehicles are going to be more practical regardless of suspension, until we can develop and mount a gun," The artillery officer admitted, "in a turret the V 12 does not adequately justify itself where a V 8 would suffice in a wheeled vehicle." The competing protected infantry vehicle using a ford v 8 had a smaller turret but they were still testing the belt fed improved 20mm gun...it wasn't there yet either... and some of that was just ammunition tolerances... they wouldn't be ready for this... chances were if fighting happened in Zhengzhou this summer it wouldn't much different to the Manchu restoration in terms of the armored cars in action.

 

[ATP]

polish light armored cars used during 1920 war ,and made on Ford truck chasis,were too heavy,too,and could be used only on good roads.

And tanks - best design you have is Fiat 3000,but still do not worth mass producing.Wait for Vickers E,improve it like soviets and built something like T.26.
Good enough for everything Japan had in OTL, and till 1940 good for soviets,too.

 

[Imperator Pax]

1924
The rain might have passed, but they were taking full advantage of the soaking it had done the ground to evaluate things. Tires and tracked vehicles both were being watched by junior and senior officers alike. Percy too watched the review with obvious interest, which was a welcome change from breakfast where they had somehow managed to get on the topic of Queen Victoria's death in January of 1901. "The British Army is spread thin across the empire, but I can see how this would be useful."

"Shouldn't have gone and saved the French then." Cole's friend sneered as british 'radio tanks' phoned in to the post.

Percy almost started, and nearly took the baited comment, likely thrown out there since the man had been deep in the Philippine brush when Edward VII had come to the throne, "The Army was spread thin across the Empire before hand," France had made itself very unpopular since the end of the war with the English speaking world, but Percy was right. The British Army of the pre war years had relied on its Indian regiments to police the empire, to give it the manpower to sustain that. Administering an empire that the sun never set upon was expensive business, as was the cost of that army, and of the Navy which safeguarded the seas.

Admittedly those same protections, that same empire, caused plenty to view King George's empire with suspicion much as they had feared London under Victoria when she had ruled.

"You'd dowell to spend money on your army." The man replied turning away from the men at the banks of receivers, "Spend money on training, and modernizing. We'll be killing Bolsheviks at some point." His comment met with nods of agreement from other officers both those who had been at Ekatrinburg to save the Tsar on behalf of the British government and those who had not. "Only reason I reckon the French didn't break outside of Paris, you fools were there to put some steel in their spines, but they did show their yellow bellies eventually." The former cavalry man continued.

Percy sputtered since despite the French reputation for being lacking in Martial Vigor since at least 1870 Percy's upbringing had suggested not airing such in public... especially not in the present company of junior officers... but for southern gentry the implication for cowardice was something to bite down and tear at more or less at any given opportunity... even if it might not have been the right time.

In front of the men was not the right time.

Allen sighed. The man was excellent at scouting and training the men, and he had Cole's proxy vote when he was absent most of the time... but the virginian had a mean streak a mile wide. If he hadn't already had a grudge on France before the mess in North Africa, before the war, the French attitude towards repaying the war debts might have b een a minor grumbling point... but he'd come to China sour on the French and the French legation especially the French Legation in Shanghai had not done his opinion any favors. "No sense arguing about it. We'll keep our watches."

The cavalryman grinned, a gesture his staff agreed with as they stood in their riding boots. For as mean as he could be, the man was well liked by his command. He had been with the defense of Xian in Van force against Bai Lang, and he had sortied from Ba Shan on more than one occasion. His men liked him though it was also well established that he planned to hang up the spurs and retire once the ETS work was done... which most likely meant he'd put this papers in once Xian actually had a cavalry branch.

Most likely so that one of his senior staff might be in the running for the first general of the cavalry as a branch. One of the front runners made a comment about the armament.

The grin turned wider and he leaned towards the railing as the combat cars moved over, past the antennae festooned radio tanks "Thats them, we'll find the bandits, fix them in place let the big army rail them down." He told a captain beside them...probably due to ship for the staff college in the next class. "I can't wait for Griswold to ready those new gun though." Much like gunboats in the Philippines the turrets of the combat cars mounted the venerable 1PDRs. They were reliable guns, they rarely jammed even if they were a bit anemic... and they had a lot of them, but the change over was going to have to come sooner rather than later now... they had probably waited too long... but Griswold promised that the simplification of the improved bekker gun with its simplified breach block and other adjustments to the cutting and milling would result in a reliable gun with far fewer parts and thus cheaper.

"These are the ones with the new suspensions then?"

"Thats right." The Virginian drawled. "Should see them go out over the mud, they do well. I may miss riding a horse in the field, but I like cars as a replacement. That V 8 is good. The racers have done a fine job with the work." He continued grandly. "I look forward very much to our work this summer," Exercises in Kansu he meant the ones well away from the public eye for the public would not see cavalry just yet... though it was also possible he had real action in mind as well.

That was the consensus across the cadre, and across the General Staff. Ford's trucks in factory condition had been good in that condition and the adding of stuff had shown vulnerabilities. The additional weight strained the original suspension... the torsions bars first designed for racing cars had proven the answer for reinforced off road action.

Percy nodded at the answer. "And the radios."

The virginian scowled at the truth, and Percy deserved a point awarded for it "Just the lead car of a platoon." He replied, "We don't have enough radios and frankly the ones we do have have other limitations." It was the sort of thing that would eventually get worked out but for the time being it was a reality They were not quite so bad as to be playing with stand ins. All of the vehicles in this ETS unit were actually armored and carried live weapons... it was just production of radios was such that there was a bottleneck. "In a few years, this one," He indicated one of his majors, "Will have radios in all his cars capable of relaying aircraft and artillery onto targets but we're not there yet."

Percy started a little at the declaration especially out front of junior officers.

"We will eventually field cavalry brigades- divisions even." Waite commented, "though I'm not quite sure how we'll structure them until we're further along." There were weapons on this review that they could not yet test. Waite had initially liked Bobby Mitchel's idea of a large single inertia guided missile that the Signals Corp in the states had been testing but it just didn't have the accuracy and it was expensive given its motor. If they hit they were amazing but for the sort of fighting being done it was too expensive and not accurate enough.

His solution was to return to the bombardment launchers and apply some of the lessons learned with mortar bomb fuselage construction. There was still something of an accuracy issue, but they were cheap, and the chemical industry produced a potent fuel for the rocket engines that Waite thought had good potential... but Waite wanted trucks for them and he would have to wait for that before he could truly test more than a battery or so at a time.

That lesson was largely true for here. They needed radios put in operating units, and that limited the number which could be mounted in experimental sections. He wondered if Percy understood that distinction or if the cavalryman persnickety orneriness had caught him off guard today.

The Combat Cars with their torsion bar suspension squealed through the mud, their engines driving them through it, splashing all the way. They moved not as quick as they would have over hard flat terrain but quick enough to outpace ponies at gallop... and their turrets as they moved towards sent tracing red streaks towards straw and stick building targets.

The 1PDRs were little different than the ones used at ekatrinburg but were on much newer better trucks, and more importantly the squadron moving was information in much significant numbers. "What do you make of it? Too many, or too few cars?"

"I like five as a number sir." The virginian answered, "Commander has his radio and is in a position to form a base of fire and direct with his brothers. As I said, I will be grateful when Griswold has the new guns." The one pounders had given good service for the decades they had been in but they were a weapon of the previous century and one now anemic to the needs, but they made do with them until a replacement was ready even if the Virginian was hardly the only one chomping at the bit for the arsenals to build more of theautocannons that were improvements of Bekker... but part of thatchange over was that the bekker gun just kept being modified, and now simplified in the process since they finally had settled on a lengthened cartridge; just over seven inches.

--
Notes: It shouldbe noted that the French reputation for cowardice in the Englishspeaking world is old, it was a cliche in the 19th​century, and probably has its roots in English middle aged folk loreto some degree or another, but it does appear in English and Americanpapers in the 1800s. Now that being said the French reputation forsurrender at the drop of a hat does largely stim from World War 2,but English speaking accusations of French cowardice and duplicity iscommon place to the point that both American and British commentators on the Franco Prussian war at the time largely agreed that the Frenchwere too emotional and lost their nerve and this was ascribed to theFrench being cowardly and effiminate. [It certainly doesn't help thatBritain was at the time latched onto the Martial Race theory, and bagging on France was popular at home] These accusations had alsobeen rendered before, as well as would be again regarding French behavior in China as well as during the war scares particularly over Egypt and in North Africa with the various jingoistic papers.

By the 1920s,flat out these kind of attitudes due to both French tariffs and thedefault on war debts these atitudes became exceedingly acrimonious invarious British and American circles... and by this point the Frenchlegation was already providing political protection for the youngchinese communist party in Shanghai much as it had done with the anarchists before this... which is another issue. That was not to saythat there were not francophiles in the English speaking world, thereabsolutely were, but for much of the 19th​ century Francewas to use the term of the day 'the racial enemy' of English speakingnations, that included the United States who remained very sore overthe French invasion of Mexico as well as French prescence in the newworld.

If not forKaiser Wilhelm being needlessly antagonistic a war between Franceagainst either the British Empire or the US was very probable indeedFrance had considered going to war against Japan on Russia's behalfwhich would have triggered the Anglo-Japanese alliance, and likewise,the dogger bank incident could well have brought England into the waragainst Russia (thus bringing France in to war under the terms of itsalliance). Ironically had this happened this would well have headedoff much of the anglo-german naval race (though it also probablywould insured Wilhelm would do something stupid and unintentionally antagonistic to England such as demand French colonies africa or asiaor something likewise stupid potentially putting Germany and Englandinto the possibility of a future conflict) as the price for'mediating a peace treaty' or some such nonsense that only Wilhelm would think was a good idea.

 

[ATP]

Or,if war do not start in 1914,Russia and France would develop their fleets to the point when England decide to support germans....
Another option - germans start thinking and ally with Russia again.It was Bismarck idea - made such alliance,and rule Europe.And it actually could worked.

P.S if your army arleady use old naval 37mm guns,then they could use old naval 47,57 or 65mm guns,too.All much better against fortivied position,and last two could be good against medium tanks.

 

[Faralis]

Or,if war do not start in 1914,Russia and France would develop their fleets to the point when England decide to support germans....

Click to shrink...

I doubt it, the Duma hated everything to do with the fleet, even before Tsushima, after that? No chance of producing a massive fleet at all.

And the French knew they need the Brits on their side, or Germany destroys them. Again.

Not saying its impossible, but is quite difficult, IMVHO.

 

[ATP]

I doubt it, the Duma hated everything to do with the fleet, even before Tsushima, after that? No chance of producing a massive fleet at all.

And the French knew they need the Brits on their side, or Germany destroys them. Again.

Not saying its impossible, but is quite difficult, IMVHO.

Click to shrink...

You have a point,french fleet was built for Med.And Russia planned to built battlecruisers and super battleships, but not as many as germans.
So,if war happened in,let say,1924,we would have the same Allies,but with little better planes, no tanks, BUT - all sides would have more cool battleships.Some even superbattleships.
Brits planned battlecruiser with 508mm guns.Pity,that war happened in 1914!

P.S Since Russia would finish their ammo factories,they would not fall,and Allies would win and we would have only small vassal Poland serving Russia,BUT...still better then Revolution and 46 years of puppet state ruled by soviets.

 

[Imperator Pax]

May 1924
Allen examined the papers with annoyance. The papers only really tended to bring bad news... but then so did the cables too often. The labor government under MacDonald had recognized the Soviet union which was an unpopular and controversial move. There had been an election in Italy which seemed a concern to the State Department. Daniel had sent word over the wires regarding both the Exhibition in London, that he had announced he had leave to attend the summer olympics in Paris... but they had matters closer to home to contend with "What do you make of it?"

"Posturing." The officer in front of him replied immediately. "Always posturing with the southern doctor." He reiterated dismissively.

That was the general consensus, "Japan is going to the polls on Saturday." He noted. That pronounced no comment that bore writing in the log...but he didn't disagree with the mumbling that went around. However it came out someone was going to be unhappy, "Yeah its just as likely they won't have a definitive result." But China, and Xian would have political parties that much was on the wall already. It had been. He returned to his papers, the busybodies in Shanghai were making comment about things too damned inland that Bund folk should have been sticking their noses in it. "Its been ten years." He told the officer in front of him. "It has been a good ten years, but a great deal remains." That issue with the train, and the bandits taking hostages and now the Shanghai people in the international quarter sneering about John Jordan's arms embargo and its ineffective enforcement grated. June, and summer were right around the corner.

That would mean drill, but also other civilized business. Electrification work came to mind. Xian was used to it now but largely because it had been driven by the rapid industrialization of the city as factories had gone up. Power for smaller cities, of which there were a score, had also been settled by the war in Europe... but further west well less so. So before the summer winds stole in, and brought the rains and swoll the rivers he'd tour the western commandries.

Bill would come south to give Eighth the chance to rotate off the line. The 5th ​would join him but it would be the brigade heading the Bashan defensive cordon's action stations. That arrangement though came from the recommendation of the General Staff, and entirely for 5th​'s previous misfortune... most of the staff officers from Infantry were made up from Rifle Officers and they were more trusting of their own like.

"We will at some point have to let 5th​ shoulder the burden, just not this year." He told his chief of staff, and the Staff Intelligence Officer who were both to his right.

"General McCulloch has a fearsome reputation that will deter the bandits, and certainly not with General Lee so close at hand."

"Thats true." He agreed to the major's response. "But 3rd ​needs to come off rotation, and Lee is there because Bill has those new planes. Which, yes I admit will probably scare the bandits further, but we're still working on a future program." Everything was a work in progress... it really did seem like everything was ten years down the road at time... but Lee and his officers really did need a break and a rotation... it was damned hard to spare the men at times.

"Zhang Tso-lin suffered some difficulties in his own aircraft design. I am told his engines were underpowered and he asked too much of the frame?" That was the word from all comers in the north, but it was no surprise. Zhang had a good air force, but he wanted a bird that could do a little bit of everything. There were rumors that one of Zhang's younger boys would probably be a flyer and hopefully when he commissioned those sorts of problems would be squared away... but more importantly it was that Zhang continued to modernize.

... and that he was loudly saying it was just the beginning.

In that respect Zhang's efforts strongly implied he was preparing for a second round... this was a distraction they did not need. China didn't need. Zhang Tsolin didn't seem to be able to stomach the embarrassing turn of affairs of losing to Wu after denigrating the man's martial abilities for so long... still wasn't inclined to treat Wu as an equal member of the beiyang general ranks. His telegrams, and the words from his sizable dinner parties made that very clear.

It was not so simple as injured pride, or of just one clique having one foreign supporter or the other. The old china hands of the Foreign Office had long ago recognized during Victoria's reign that China's expanse meant warlords ruled in the hinterlands.... but for the official record still acknowledged that legally Peking was the capital and whoever ruled there was the 'Chinese government' such that it was.

But in the young officer's eyes Allen could tell that the little bird serving as his chief of staff had no affection for Peking or Cao Kun regardless of how long the dujun of Zhili had been their friend. He had no liking for Zhang Tso-lin either, or Zhang Xun in Shanghai, or his sworn brothers and never mind the southern doctor hiding out in Japanese Taiwan. "It will be a distraction," The man remarked, "And we do not need not with the bolsheviks being so vociferous of late."

Trotsky had been running off at the mouth... and other ones too.

He knew that as well, but they were lucky that even with MacDonald in power Britain still insisted that Moscow respect the lines on the map... and for whatever squawking the reds were doing they didn't have the money or the arms to start a war just yet... and if they did it would almost certainly cause a famine and if the soviets started a war Coolidge didn't seem like to ship grain to them which meant given past practice the bolshevik would plunder their own countryside eventually of seed grain to try and feed Petersburg and Moscow and the armies marching across lands that had had their railways torn to shreds before the bonfire of the civil war had died down.

Would he visit Kirghiz after the western commanderies.... that was still in the air."What's eating you other than that?" He asked.

The junior officer shuffled suddenly uneasy to be asked the question, which only attracted a noteworthy look from the staff intelligence officer to his right "I had a very queer conversation with Mister Graves at Friday's dinner party."

"Was he drunk?" He had not missed that the colonel had not used Percy's rank, even though he was at best on half pay or mustered out from the axe probably, but Percy had strong prospects with the foreign service on the China station, and had had his drinking problem under control the last few years... men did slip sometimes.

"Oh yes, not uproariously so but I think he misjudged mother's punch." Allen laughed, it had been a fine punch but he had moderated after a few glasses, "He remarked that his predecessor in the office was that the Foreign Office had originally thought America would rely on Chinese soldiers to liberate the Philippines from Spain." He raised an eyebrow and sat back slightly. Percy had never told him this, and he gestured for his chief of staff to carry on. "There were as I understand many 'war scares' between America and Spain and they had surmised the American stratagem would be training up brigades of men with new magazine rifles and remove the Spanish."

Thoughts turned to being a fresh lieutenant and for the sailing out to the Philippines, then the heat, and well other memories, "While I will admit that the Army was spare of manpower, this is the first I've heard about this." He wasn't saying it was not impossible and it was certainly plausible that American adventurers had volunteered such a possibility to the war office during one of the scares before the Maine had gone up he doubted much that the war office had seriously considered training up and shouldering theexpense of five or ten thousand chinese soldiers never mind bringing them to the islands... but that was not why Percy was bringing it up, "Some one in the Legation or in Shanghai said something to bring that old idea up."

"I believe that it is the talk of the expeditionary force again."

He nodded thoughtful... there was a lot of talk, "Five rifle divisions and six brigades of first rate men would be a great comfort to the state." he remarked confirming the talking point that was making the rounds, "But we can talk about it, but it would be a great expense also, and each province needs to field a division of infantry for their guard and that is a burden too but for emergencies a more useful one in peace time." He knew the young man who had missed the 'great' early campaigns and only been at Zhengzhou in 1917 did not want to hear that... especially with 1925 around the corner so to speak and the constitution nearly five years old already.

"You are friends with the Governor General," And Allen suspected that his real inclination was to refer to Wood as Dujun, "of the Philippines."

"I have known Wood a long time," Having watched him trounce the University of Georgia's football team to his maternal uncle's consternation. Allen had already known he'd been destined for WestPoint by then. "But if your question is would we go over there, no. And, Leonard Wood would never ask." Regardless of whatever troubles he was having with his civilian people, Wood was going to be stubborn, and that might hurt him. "If there was anything that we could do to help the islands then it would be investment, and books not arms." There were probably bandit problems in the morolands still, and elsewhere... but he doubted after he said it that was really what the colonel was asking or his aim but without knowing what it was that Percy had run off at the mouth about... and how much of that was relating some strange idea the British legation had gotten into their heads twenty thirty years ago and had passed on as some diplomatic folk tale about their american cousins.

He'd have to ask another day though.
--
Notes: Yes as silly as it sounds in the mid eighteen nineties (before the SpanishAmerican war did actually break) there were concerns or at least arumor that crops up from time to time that a foreign legion ofChinese would be trained up by Americans to fight Spain maybe whoeverfirst started the rumor was projecting because I do not in anyway seethat this could have originated under Endicott (who was SoW in 1885presiding over modernization efforts) and it does not fit with whatwe know of the US Army planning during this period. So I think thiswas some Shanghai or Hong Kong secretary's idle fancy. [Is it apotentially cool Alternate History prompt sure, do I consider itrealistic of US Policy of hte period not in the slightest.]

Here though isthat if you're the Foreign Office, it might have been a queer idea in1890 but parts of the liberal wing of the Foreign Service are alreadyuncomfortable with some of hte implications. Again, Curzon madeenemies as easily as he made friends and vice versa and his tenure asforeign secretary was dominated with thoughts of India... much likehis entire career. The obsessions and priorities of hte ForeignSecretary often shaped policy perhaps even more so than that of thesitting prime minister during this period. [It bears stating herethat MacDonald was by comparison vastly more eurocentric in hispriorities, being focused on the continent. I won't go so far as tosay to the exclusion of everything else since he wasn't PM longenough to make that judgement in my opinion]

 

[ATP]

chineese as USA Foreign Legion? seems legit to me,they would not need to explain why americans boys died in some distant country to Congress.
And chineese get better job then they could get in China.So- it would be win-win for both sides.

China internal affairs seems to follow canon.Good,there is no reasons why it should change.

Italy - i once read,that Mussolini was either french or british plant which later started act on its own.Forget sources,as usual.

But - when in Poland we had putch in 1926,soviets do not knew about it,and later claimed that it is part of great plan made by evul England, which used bot Poland and Germany as puppets to attack soviets with 120 divisions.
Soviets really belived that.

Utterly bullshit,England could influence Poland and Germany,but not own them.And both countries could wield 60 divisions max together,even if they cooperated.

This time,i could deliver source,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://allegro.pl/produkt/o-pilsudskim-dmowskim-i-zamachu-majowym-dyplomacja-sowiecka-wobec-polski-w-okresie-kryzysu-politycznego-1925-1926-mariusz-wolos-118999ed-7736-4314-994d-b55f0bf6f46c%3Fsrsltid%3DAfmBOoosBb74Y-PrsfbPZGFNSbU6NmgzGxQc8BuGQMUMnrBF4eiPHZLL&ved=2ahUKEwjIy7vN5dWPAxW7QlUIHap_AMYQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0duNRvjEmghn7C0VJzTdA2

book in polish -- my translation"About Piłsudzki,Dmowski and 1926 putch,soviet diplomacy about Poland affairs"

 

[Unik]

I'm wondering how powerful their region is as compared to the other warlords. I mean they're focusing on building up their territory and investing instead on trying to take over China. Not to mention all the schools opened in their region. How well educated would their populace be?

 

[Imperator Pax]

chineese as USA Foreign Legion? seems legit to me,they would not need to explain why americans boys died in some distant country to Congress.
And chineese get better job then they could get in China.So- it would be win-win for both sides.

China internal affairs seems to follow canon.Good,there is no reasons why it should change.

Italy - i once read,that Mussolini was either french or british plant which later started act on its own.Forget sources,as usual.

But - when in Poland we had putch in 1926,soviets do not knew about it,and later claimed that it is part of great plan made by evul England, which used bot Poland and Germany as puppets to attack soviets with 120 divisions.
Soviets really belived that.

Utterly bullshit,England could influence Poland and Germany,but not own them.And both countries could wield 60 divisions max together,even if they cooperated.

This time,i could deliver source,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://allegro.pl/produkt/o-pilsudskim-dmowskim-i-zamachu-majowym-dyplomacja-sowiecka-wobec-polski-w-okresie-kryzysu-politycznego-1925-1926-mariusz-wolos-118999ed-7736-4314-994d-b55f0bf6f46c%3Fsrsltid%3DAfmBOoosBb74Y-PrsfbPZGFNSbU6NmgzGxQc8BuGQMUMnrBF4eiPHZLL&ved=2ahUKEwjIy7vN5dWPAxW7QlUIHap_AMYQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0duNRvjEmghn7C0VJzTdA2

book in polish -- my translation"About Piłsudzki,Dmowski and 1926 putch,soviet diplomacy about Poland affairs"

Click to shrink...

Mussolini was orignally supported by the French, and then he lost the plot and went well into cuckoo land.

I'm wondering how powerful their region is as compared to the other warlords. I mean they're focusing on building up their territory and investing instead on trying to take over China. Not to mention all the schools opened in their region. How well educated would their populace be?

Click to shrink...

Literacy is still relatively low at this point, compulsory education is still relativley recent and largely in urban areas (probalby somewhere around half of hte population is literate, more in Xian, and Taiyuan, and the other major cities) the difference is the emergence of well educated middle class of managers and officers thats really the bigger distinguishing demographic feature from Fengtien Manchuria which is also heavily industrializing right now

In terms of regions Manchuria is really the only comparable region to speak of. Sichuan province during this period is a vastly larger populace but its splintered into many factions its a great microcosm of what you see across china as a whole. the Yunnan clique is interesting and influential in the south to the point its influence its outsized versus its competitors but ultimately it was punching above its weight class and that wasn't sustainable especially because it didn't have the capital coming in to maintain that

 

[Imperator Pax]

To expand on the edit in the above post, Manchuria really is the most comparable entity at this point. Yuan Shikai was able to a limitted extent play both the provincial and national level game at the same time, far more than Duan or Cao part of this is because Yuan was much more accepted as paramount internationally as well as by provincial leaaders and especially by the beiyang. Zhang Xun's putsch attempt the attempted restoration of the Manchus removed him from military power and facilitated his alliance with Sun yat-sen but really Sun didn't have a military power base, and never really got one. Its the infighting with the Beiyang, and the atomization of those ties that really allows Chiang to get everyone on board and of course that only allowed a limitted federal government with Chiang as nominal leader but thats another thing entirely

Duan, and Cao never really focused on developing Zhili while fairly densly populated their campaigns (duan invading the south) and then Cao's wars particularly with Fengtien irrevocably damaged the Beiyang 3rd Division as a political tool due to the splintering of allegiances that came out.

By contrast the western provinces the gansu corridor provinces on the old silk road had a history of being ruled as a group or bieng in the same influence structure and with Manchuria's three provinces same deal they both function with much more coherent leadership than the other beiyang provinces which by this point are largely parcelled out under roughly coequal 'fraternal' dujun aligned with one sub clique of the beiyang. [where as Zhang was paramount over the other two Manchurian governors]

In the south, there just is too much infighting Yunnan maintains and outsized influence but that eventuaally becomes an insular focus as we get into this period with other political/social/economic changes in and around Canton and well there are external eventualitiies in the major coastal cities as well that effect southern politics

 

[Unik]

So the cadre controls the most stable of the provinces? In that case they have the most potential to develop a robust political state apparatus.
As compared to the other warlords how well trained is the Xian"s army?
Zhang in Manchuria had an officer academy while the south had whampoa. But a majority of the army was made of untrained conscripts.

 

[Faralis]

chineese as USA Foreign Legion? seems legit to me,they would not need to explain why americans boys died in some distant country to Congress.

Click to shrink...

Nah, they were very very racist in the US by then. It wouldn't never been approved, giving tons of weapons to chinese...

 

[ATP]

Nah, they were very very racist in the US by then. It wouldn't never been approved, giving tons of weapons to chinese...

Click to shrink...

What is more racist then sending chineese to die instead of our american boys? they were not racists,only idiots.

 

[Imperator Pax]

So the cadre controls the most stable of the provinces? In that case they have the most potential to develop a robust political state apparatus.
As compared to the other warlords how well trained is the Xian"s army?
Zhang in Manchuria had an officer academy while the south had whampoa. But a majority of the army was made of untrained conscripts.

Click to shrink...

Xian's army is qualitatively superior, its an all volunteer force and benefits from having the industralized base to provide equipment and supplies to the troops. So we're talking boots, rucksacks (in the classic bergen sense), field jackets, uniforms in general load bearing equipment entrenching tools

This is also the major social difference in the army there is no conscription and there is a professional NCO and Officer corp to rely on they're being educated, and moved around [this also prevents fudging numbers for embezzling in the army that was commonplace in Qing and Ming and probably late Yuan armies, troops are centrally trained they go through the same basic regimen of training]

 

[Imperator Pax]

May 1924
Allen had put aside a tour of the artillery where there was another squabble over something or 'nother that Dawes was likely to want weighed in on... he was probably looking for the opportunity to bring something in from Austria, but well this needed to be nipped in the bud sooner rather than later, which meant he could put off that for a day or two, "Now, what's this nonsense about American lead chinese troopers in the Philippines you've spun to my chief of staff?" He demanded of the sober englishman who had been starting to help himself to the tea. In a way he was springing on Percy quick, ambush even but if he needed to do damage control he wanted it done. The last thing he needed was some yarn to get spun off to Manilla and make it to Wood and have the old man hit there of... or worse make it to Washington.

Percy shuffled back, and Allen was reminded he was a bit taller than the slighter Englishman. "Thats not exactly what I said, I think." He paused, "its just, Curzon may be out but there were talks, and comments he had made."

Allen took a seat, but didn't pick up his own mug. He assumed he was Curzon, but hindsight suggested he might have quizzed his own chief of staff better about events. "Go on," Curzon as Foreign Secretary had been a minor nightmare for the man's tendency to step in it, but having MacDonald pull the job as well as be prime minister... that seemed odd to him, but more so bothered by the Labour party's leanings. Something he understood Percy's leanings to be of a similar mindset. The current PM was considered by the old China hands as something of a menace. Some of the still oldest hands had even retreated back to Victorian sensibilities that the frogs were the natural enemy of all of anglo-saxon stock, which some felt placed too much esteem on the French all together, but it was 1924... and he suspected that given the axe taken to the ranks some men were hoping a war might spark off and give them the chance to rise quickly in the ranks.

According to Daniel there were queer political grumblings in England as well, beyond just the bolshevik drivel... and never mind Italy.

Percy tried to leverage, "It was you I should remind you who went over with the men into Russia to save the Tsar... for which you brought your troopers."

"You're right." He replied seeing no reason to object, because yeah well if the Foreign Office was talking about things... "But That was twenty years after our war with Spain broke out." The Maine had gone up on the ides of February 1898, they had moved just ahead of independence day 1918 on Ekatrinbug. Allen flexed his hand, the memory calling before taking his mug "Now, I will be making a phone call to Leonard Wood in Manilla, and I suppose I will need to discuss these wild English rumors with the ambassador," His tone making clear this was a headache he didnt need, "What's Alston got to say on all this?" Allen knew he was pushing harder than he might have needed to... but he also knew that the Foreign office had it little jokes amongst themselves and he didn't care for the ones that he had heard.

"MacDonald pays no mind to those of us out here in the East."

"Thats not what I asked,"

"But it is John Allen. China's trade is important to the Empire. The House of Commons will much say so." Percy continued on winding on around back benchers and the like, and London's papers, "This is the stuff of adventure novels for whatever the duldrum of the work behind the scenes," Allen was all too aware that Daniel meant to marry the Romanov girl. That promised to be complicated. Daniel might not have had his fortune, but he'd gotten his share of the inheritance, and he'd made money at home before the war. It was not like he was without prospects. Percy heedless of an elder brother's concern continued, "Yuan Shikai would have done well to put you in charge of his army."

Allen shook his head at the change or attempt to change the subject, "No he wouldn't have. Not in 1914, I didn't have the skills for that. In ten years we have learned a great deal, but at thirty five I was not prepared to command half a million men." He also, for what would have been a great row between him, and Yuan been in agreement with Cao Kun that the forays south were wasteful of men and treasure for little gain especially with hindsight. "No if anything I'd have been a headache on the china station trying to build the railways." He probably had been a headache, still might be, in some quarters....

To that Percy shifted nervously, "That is true, even though I'd say your work and its scope are as impressive as making an army in china. You say you couldn't see sending an army to the Philippines?"

"No," Allen replied immediately, it was nonsensical, and yet he remembered all too well the French questions of Japanese troops for Europe, and that couldn't have escaped his staff officers, "Nor would I countenance an army to Europe." The topic shifted back again to the matter of the prime minister in power now in London, "So this came from Curzon then?"

"Only in sofar as to protect India there were talks of armies of allied states in Asia, which as I understand your General Staff would rather fight the Bolsheviks in the steppe than on home soil," Which was true Allen allowed, and indeed while a minority there was a small pro war party in the lower house which took the rhetoric further, "He left Alston with rather clear instructions, which Downing Street's most recent occupant has not seen fit to remand."

Curzon had before the European War spoken and written extensively on India and the relations between the realms of King-Emperor and Tsar and that game. "Now correct me if I'm wrong, but Curzon has never been particularly inclined towards the viability of a buffer state."

"My understanding of the Foreign Secretary's thinking at the time of writing is that states independent of Moscow and independent of European powers are the most reliable sort." There were no European powers any more, France did he amended to himself Cochin-china, but France, like Austria, Italy and especially Germany were too poor and too ruined financially to be involved... but Allen wondered if that was something else Curzon was too caught up in the before the war relations, perhaps explaining Curzon's insistence on dumping loads of weapons deemed surplus to requirement in Persia ,"Whether or not he was correct that territorial aggrandizement has a dominating effect on the Russian mind, well only time will tell if Lord Curzon is right there." To support this Percy claimed to have papers of various ideas on relations with Iran and a policy of erecting a cordon sanitaire in Asia against the Bolsheviks aimed at maintaining friendly relations with Japan.

It was no secret Curzon thought all russians immoral, slackers, and incompetents and that he had go to insist Lenin was more mongol, or hun than any sort of respectable gentleman. The problem of course with respectable gentleman was a label meant an english man which rather obviously Vladimir Lenin was not. Curzon shared Chamberlain's view on the British Race's acumen for governorship. The Lenin Government had been established by 'barbarian means', by a 'hunnish cabal of cutthroats', etc etc etc.

All of that was well and good Allen felt but, "Which is nothing substantive Percy," He replied, "And is why your implications regarding the idea of Chinese troopers in the Philippines is a vexing nuisance of story. I will be obligated to explain this flight of british fancy. Its the sort of things that leads to misunderstandings."

"However that might be, if the Bolsheviks are forced to split their meagerly equipped army in many directions then trade with Europe, especially with their current tiff with the Germans should keep them too divided to do anything. There should no way for them to resume hostilities." He wished could have Percy's confidence on such a matter. "Besides they're still cutting each other up."

To that he nodded, "Which we should be grateful for, their attention elsewhere buys us time," It bought them time to provision and shore up things ... create a buffer state between them and Moscow ... it was realpolitik. The General Staff had deeper ideas than what Percy was aware of, and they pushed their papers up as recommendations to the Cadre, particularly the men of the hundred holding commands in the army.

 

[ATP]

Soviets were arleady allied with germans/Locarno/ ,and they would remain allied till Hitler take power.
Brits here have actually good ideas - buffer states in Asia to fight soviets for them,and alliance with Japan.If they keep that Alliance,they would never lost their empire.
Lenin - he was genocider,not mere cutthroat,and he could be consider as mongrel,too, considering how many different ancestrors he had.

P.S i still think,that sending chineese troops to Philippiness would be good for USA in 1898.

 

[Faralis]

Soviets were arleady allied with germans/Locarno/ ,and they would remain allied till Hitler take power.

Click to shrink...

Well they were "friendly" even after Hitler, even with the anti-comitern pact. And that little bit of dividing your country between them...

 

[ATP]

Well they were "friendly" even after Hitler, even with the anti-comitern pact. And that little bit of dividing your country between them...

Click to shrink...

True - but,Stalin plan to backstab his german friends and take all.And he would do that,but France surrender after 6 weeks, when they supposed to fight few years.
Genius plan,to be honest.If french fough like during WW1,soviets could take entire Europe in 1944.

 

[Imperator Pax]

May 1924
A series of dispatches were fired off in a number of directions. The Bolsheviks had attempted to menace Persia, but that had been through the Northwest of that country. With the Cossacks in Kirghiz creating a buffer state there was no longer a land border with Kashmir or Afghanistan. Allen wondered if that had made Curzon's planning seem shrill to his fellow well bred british gentlemen, or perhaps not there were others in the Foreign Office for whom were opposed to MacDonald's charity to the soviets. The Whites retreat from Omsk had devastated the city, and the Bolsheviks taking the town their red cavalry had made it worse. Kazan was as they went the most serious position of Bolshevik power according to the English the perilous conditions of the roads and the destruction of the railway in the civil war meant that most of the eastern towns existed by were still heavily impoverished... made worse by famine and grain requisitions. It also meant horseback was the only fleet way of making it through... and that the bolsheviks might need another decade to rebuild the trans-siberian on their side.

The officers under the General Staff talked. Even with Powell gone, and Hodges dead it didn't change the fact that men who'd been in their chains of command or under men who'd been there still referred back to their positions.

"It is the official Cadre position that Japan telling the French to pound sand every time they asked for Japanese troops for the bloodletting in Europe was prudent." The actual position was slightly more politic in tone than pound sand but Waite wasn't wrong... and behind close doors it became a little more coarse than the official line. It had been a position they had adopted when it had come out. "That being said, I don't think we can quite fault Percy Graves too terribly hard, Powell's troopers are integrated, but he took troops from his brigade when he went over to Guatemala including officers and men and there has been other cross over. That being said we could still had problems with the congress or the papers back home."

Coolidge had been in office properly for out four months, and had talked of removing troops but those practical efforts seemed limited to the dominican republic, which would leave US troops present in Nicaragua. On the other hand the government of Honduras was spending large sums of money to modernize their army with the MAK was happy to furnish since Latin America was not under any arms restraints... which probably wasn't popular with Coolidge since his state department had hoped Honduras in particular would hold elections this year... that seemed very unlikely according to Powell's report. "Does he expect to see combat?"

There was a sigh, "Yes, actual combat this go round, not a tropical iteration of the RPF actions. Which I think is the subject of mixed feelings." Honduras could have been subject to an arms embargo, that had been a position considered by persons in Washington, but Honduras had two years earlier welcomed ahead of the Amity Treaty Powell's offer of expanded railway concessions and to furnish the proposed United Central American States with modern arms andtraining, in return the Guatemalan and honduran governments had allowed the Cadre there to work unimpeded. Most of those modern arms two years earlier had been surplus purchases from Europe that simply couldn't be imported into Chinese ports without a row, "It might have issues."

There was grumbling around. The conversation turned away to their own troops, "We have a few months still before a decision has to be made, but we need an answer to give the staff. What is it we should define as a cavalry Regiment?" Horse soldiers were not it. There had been consideration even discussions that perhaps converting units might be viable. That h d been refused for a dozen or more reasons as not practicable to make conversions.

Allen felt the eyes turn. He glanced down to the papers at his right, there were quotes from Von clauswitzs so for the moment he figured it was best to start there, but ultimately this was merely formal confirmation of what was to be passed on, "We will need such regiments to achieve secondaryobjectives with an economy of force. To scout, and to provide security." There were nods, this was the way of cavalry of the states to screen and mount hasty attacks, to reconnoiter , "I should think we are well suited by such, Waite your tank proposal?"

"To provide a mobile gun platform that is self propelled and with protected ammunition stowage. Self contained," He paused, and Allen suspected for a moment that he had some question of speed but then continued, "Ideally able to fire on the move, but that is something for the future I will settle for having a three inch gun that can put itself on the reverse slope and put fire on the other guy." Waite paused again for another moment waiting gave a sigh,"I would suggest that in a year or two we see that these cavalry regiments be provided testing vehicles based on what we're working on with the ETS right now. I would believe that the best format for a regiment would be to consider what their main formation should comprise of, but I will express now that it is my professional that the chassis to carry a three inch gun cannot be functionally protected not in what has been deemed adequate and carry sufficient ammunition while remaining in common with the other vehicles. I know that the gun isn't ready, and that as a result the combat cars are more likely to be ready before then." Which was the cavalry's preference in any event.

Deciphering that last bit of engineering evasiveness the governor of Taiyuan spoke up, "it will have to be tracked?"

"Yes." He replied to Yan's question. "With lighter weapons tracks are not as critical. Obviously there are other matters im' sure everyone has been apprised of. The combat cars I think will be there to carry the fighting power in rifles without needing to be tracked." The tracked wheel debate was a matter of industry. Taiyuan had the potential to be the capital of a rich province because of its natural resources but that would take time Only a major infusion of capital ala the demands of a war in Europe could potentially change that, and the truth was things were poorly situated for that.

Taiyuan could in theory produce tracked vehicles but probably not at scale. The province's demand for vehicles was limited. That was all vehicles, and if truthful what it really needed outside of the provincial capital was tracked earth moving machines and those could have been bought arguably cheaper abroad for the projects which held priority in Yan. In terms of short term objectives that might have been more financially prudent, there were always the questions of whether or not funds might be better spent elsewhere.

Yan recognized that that as much corruption had been the limitation of the Qing procurement system. It had taken the Qing entirely too long to begin producing for example Armstrong naval guns for coastal artillery, regardless of how fine their production had been. There were other problems. Corruption had been a problem... the old buddha had, no doubt like many before her, misappropriated funds from the military for self aggrandizing projects of a more personnel nature. The robbing of the navy budget to pay for the summer palace, coupled with failures within the navy staff and general disbelief that a war could come had lead to a thrashing by Japan.

In that Yan brought other needed perspectives to the cadre. He had been given his professional education in the Japanese thoughts of land warfare, which while similar to the one they had come up with... more importantly that Yan had a first hand look as Meiji Japan had industrialized where as the states had already been so.

--
Notes: We onlylightly touch here on the situation in the MAK but part of the reasonis that if we refer back to previous sections the middle americabranch of the cadre fields a substantively heavier military prescencethan United Fruit who in spite of possession air planes by thispoint, and artillery and machine guns through the early 1900s was arelatively small railway bound force more akin to an upgunnedpinkertons and only saw limitted fighting against bandits (as ageneral rule between United Fruit being the guys carrying mail, andmedicine during emergencies and being considered neutral the factionsfighting to be the government ignored them, or actively assisted /came to their aid against bandits and revolutionaries most of thetime simply because of the money) and had the further advantage ofbeing able to rely on US Naval Infantry (Shore parties) and USMarines

Again though alot of early 24 is the maturation of the automotive industry post war(ww1) and its effects on armored vehicles that comes out of thisperiod technologically. Tracked versus Wheel is a big thing, andwheel size is a big thing. Xian's armored personel carrier / ifv istalking about using Tractor Wheels so it would look like a cagecommando esque four wheel vehicle because again road conditions areshit.

Also again, partof the failing of armoring Ford's vehicles waas that theirsuspensions were woefully inadequate for heavier engines or puttingarmor on them. Adding that weight also meant that they were onlyuseful on roads, which ironically wasn't a problem in say 1913Shanghai where they functioned quite well during the revolt, but inthe countryside not so much. Especially given that unarmored fordsprovided mobility and a distinct advantage for the warlords who couldfield them (or any automobile suited to carrying troops).