With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Well yeah. Where else would it go to binge watch GoT?

 

A parallel universe where they let Mr Martin finish writing the books before trying to adapt them, so that the series didn't jump the shark-warg.

 

No, light is neither a particle or a wave, and it is what it is all the time. The laws of physics aren't contradictory at different scales, either. Your confusion arises from poor pop-science communication and an attempt to fit it onto an imperfect metaphor.

A photon is an excitation of the electromagnetic field. Given that as its nature, its behavior is sort of like what the layperson understands a particle to act like, and sort of like what the layperson understands a wave to act like. But as a (slightly) better metaphor (that's still very imperfect) it might be better to imagine a surfer riding on a wave. Such a thing could interact with other waves (including reflections of itself off of barriers) as well as other surfers.

Gravity isn't contradictory on the micro scale, either. Obviously gravity doesn't REALLY blow up to infinity in the middle of every proton, so that means our model isn't quite right. The simplest solution to the dilemma is just to say that elementary particles (such as quarks) aren't actually point particles, but rather that they span some definite amount of space. That way you can never reach a distance of zero from a massive object and therefore the inverse square law never blows up to infinity. Conveniently, this is exactly how string theory describes elementary particles.

It's true that our current mathematical models don't have a good description of EXACTLY what happens there, but that's primarily because it's still an area of research.

Its own future

 

And yet, none of them simply say "we are trying to build up earth's defences, what do you people think?" The way they are doing it now, people still don't get a vote, it's just a different group of elites.

 

Thank you, corrected.

Lex is building the ships in public. People most certainly are giving feedback, and they can vote to have their governments support him or oppose him. Or they can boycott LexPower and remove the mechanism he is using to fund it.

 

The only beverage cup I ever use weighs five pounds, and it's made of solid metal. I've tried tons of others; cheap glass ones, plastic water jogging bottles, fine porcelain dinnerware... But out of all of these, my giant, impractical, ridiculously heavy cup is the only cup I've ever found that lasts.

Hmm, wait. Maybe I should just stop putting molten lava in them... but it's so good for warming coffee!

 

Outside the metaphor, the lava is human nature, so we're understandably reluctant to stop pouring it in.

 

So what you're saying is the secret ingredient is mind control.

 

I mean, that wasn't the full quote, and this isn't either, but you lost the meaning behind the quote when you cut it there. This is for context.

"Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…" Winston Churchill

Ninjaed

 

It’s lava, so probably brain bleach.

 

That and or kill Aquaman.

Given what Fatherbox did to him I rather doubt Renegade reads as human so far as any realistic scientific measurement is concerned.

 

Ah, the age old question; "should we stay true to our nature, to our humanity, or change?".

It's a good question, and also gets kinda complicated because of how hard it is to distinguish between X-anity and stuff that, well, isn't.

But I'm adamant that with the right people in it, you could probably make just about any political system work well enough. Winston's quote isn't wrong, but I disagree with it because it places the blame on the form of governance, when in reality the problem is us. Democracy just happens to be the most corrosion-resistant form of government we've come across so far.

And relating back to the story, Grayven happens to have a plethora of political, economic, technological, and even specifically bioengineering resources at his disposal. And he wants to make human society stable and prosperous, and he's not shy about transhumanism. If there is anyone who can slowly guide the human race towards a better form of X-anity, it's him.

 

I never got what that meant exactly.
Does it mean that even if it would cause you less than nothing to help me that you still wouldn't do it because meh?
Or does it mean you won't help me because you want nothing to do with me because you hate me?

 

The phrase as I understand it is the first, an expression of just not being capable of caring any less.

 

Of course that's true, it's trivially true. In a society of perfect idealized angels where everyone's first and highest goal is flourishing for all people without selfishness or bias, anarchy, totalitarianism, and democracy all have precisely the same results. If everyone agrees, it doesn't matter who has the votes because every vote passes by consensus, and the consent of the governed is irrelevant because they all agree with the government by construction.

The question is whether mere mortals (who are somewhat altruistic, but only when they're comfortable themselves) can make a government work. And you'd need to pull out some awfully important core values of the human utility function to make people remotely resemble the philosopher's angels. Or make abundance so vast and effortless that everyone naturally becomes their best self. Neither is happening this side of a Singularity; not a chance.
The guy who wrote the X-anity thing clearly knows no evolutionary or developmental psychology and probably no dev-bio or evo-bio either. We are monkeys. We will always be monkeys. Anything descended from us will be a supermonkey or Vile Offspring.

Your metaphor is garbage. We're not lava, we're just hot water. The various forms of democracy are different types of cup, monarchy is a plastic bag, and anarchy is a paper bag.

 

Neither are the mechanicus however they are still considered human enough by the Imperium at large. If you scanned either of them you'd get 'Some vaguely human-like DNA'

Edit: Unless I'm wrong on my 40k lore

 

Pretty sure that applies to... most every metahuman ever?

 

Finally, criticism. It's been ages since I've actually gotten to argue a point.

Well, yes. But I'd say that you don't need to go to quite that extreme of a point to get something relatively close. Having a society is rational, to put it simply. You can get nice things like a house, high quality food, the internet, etc, much more easily in a society than you possibly could in small groups/alone. If you have people who can decently and consistently put aside emotions and gut reactions and make rational decisions then you are already on a much better foot than anything in human history, even if you don't really change anything else.

Granted, that doesn't make it... simple. Democracy is still pretty good, other forms of governance have flaws beyond "people are stupid". And rational does not mean altruistic; if you put people in situations where the best choice is to do something negative for society at a large they'll still do it unless you mess about with a whole lot of other key X-anity things, and so you have to start designing the system to keep people from ending up in that sort of situation.

I'm not sure that altruism is a good thing. Trying to increasing altruism while leaving everything else intact will get you something like... a Mother Teresa hack. You get a society where, sure, everyone is trying to help others... who primarily want to help others, and don't want much of anything for themselves. And altruism can lead to helping people back on their feet... or carrying them until they forget how to walk. It's a balancing act, and it's a delicate one; I'm not convinced it's stable, and I'm not convinced we can't do better.

Part of the reason I linked that website, criticism aside for the moment, is that it presents one of the few models of people/society that I think would actually work decently, provided you're already tinkering with all the important bits of our utility function. And as I see it, humanity has to change. Significantly. Our best hope without changing a whole lot is probably something along the lines of The Culture, where we become the glorified pets of another group that actually has their shit together. It just goes downhill from there.


So looking around for viable alternatives is a really good idea, and as a example, and to respond to your criticism about how this race could possibly develop, I provide the Eldrae:

So you're a sufficiently-advanced alien, and you're working on a brand new artificial planet. You've got the ecology fleshed, you finally smoothed out all the problems that the disc-shape caused, and now you want to put something a bit... smarter on it. And hey, while you're at it, why not make some servants at the same time?

So you fish about for viable species, and come across some carbon-based bipeds that you think will probably develop a society eventually. You take a couple, and start fixing up their biology; you get rid of that inconveniently short lifespan, add in optimizations all around, hybridize them with the main strain of life you used for rest of the planet... Looks good, now for the brain- ugh.

Okay, well... take most of this out, they're servants and decorations, not animals trying to compete in the wilderness. Nudge things around a bit so they think on a more suitable timescale... that hyperbolic discounting definitely has to go. Just improve things all around with memory, intelligence, problem solving, get rid of that choice fatigue... maybe make them a bit manic, a bit more eager for change. There, that looks good.

Now just set them down and... did that other being just start encroaching on my solar system? Hmm, looks like I'm going to have to wipe it out-


One extinct sufficiently-advanced alien race and thousands of years later, and you have a unique sort of humanity-descendant which has had all of the monkeyness left far behind. The details are... complicated. But the essence of it is that you end up with a race that isn't completely alien, mentally or culturally, but is still vastly changed. And, the point I argue is: improved.

I'm not a multi-phd expert on sociology, biology, and psychology, I don't know for sure if this fictional society would actually work, or if the people in it are actually as plausible as they seem. I do think, however, that if it does and is, then it is pretty much universally better. I provide it as a example of a at least half-decently thought out example of a alien race (even if the author is not a expert in all fields), that I would point to and say "we should just do that." It's not the only one, of course; I think Greg Egan has some great examples of viable transhumans which are more human-like than them.


To put it simply, you think humanity, the utility function of humans, needs to be preserved, and we have to find the best way to work around it. I think humanity needs to be ripped out and thrown in the garbage, and we should be shopping around to find a good, stable alternative, that is still at least vaguely similar and produces similar results. Because what we have now sucks, and it shows.

My metaphors are kinda hit and miss, this I admit freely.

(Sorry for the sorta-rambly and disjointed post, this is a complicated topic and I find it difficult to write half-decently, respond to all points presented, keep it concise, etc all at the same time)

 

They'd have to put different people in charge of it to do that.

Anarchy isn't even a paper bag, it's a pair of shaky hands at best, and no container at all, realistically.

This is a weird discussion.

 

Grayven the wholesome matchmaking supervillan

 

Maybe not Orin... or, at least, not without good incentive.

However, if that incentive involves rebuilding positive relations with Queen Clea and her city-state...

Heh, I enjoy the fact that this is all weirdly wrapping back around to canon, what with Manta and Kaldur ending up working together.

 

'Interests', I think? And we see what Manta really wants.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

That'll make anyone think for a minute.

Oh, that's just a bonus, dear fellow.

...He just doesn't get it, does he? Small time.

Now we're talking! Use your head, Manta.

...Few suggestions, if you're looking for something of greater personal value."

Panic mode imminent. I can just picture him making the slightest eye-twitch.

Hook, line and...

Interesting. He wants something.

And hope no long-underwear types take exception to your actions, and are stupid enough not to trust your word.

Oh, my. Turning another long-time villain away from the black-hat life. Grayven's got a lot of catching up to do if he wants to beat OL's record.

 

Well it's not like this is the first time he's done it...

 

I don't remember very well, at this point in canon what has Black Manta actually done, crime-wise? There's something with Atlantis, but other than that he's just a actual mercenary, not a villain?

 

You know YJ Kaldur is a bit luckier than his comics counterpart.

YJ Black Manta actually cares about him, has redeeming qualities.

Comics Kaldur, his father only sees him as a tool to get a magic item, and well he killed an infant, so not much there in redeeming qualities.

He altered his henchmen to become waterbreathers to infiltrate Atlantis.

As for his crimes, he works for the Light, so I imagine he did whatever they wanted him to do.

But the stuff shown was attacking Atlantis to steal that Starro for the Light, a plan that involved blowing things up as a distraction.

 

Thank you, corrected.

 

I caught that crisis on two earths line.

 

Having recently seen Marvel’s Runaways on Hulu, have to wonder what those kids would be like if they grew up knowing and accepting that their parents were into shady stuff (for those who don’t know the show, it’s about a group of kids whose rich and famous parents are actually supervillains). Like if they were actually indoctrinated and didn’t somehow pick up morality from somewhere. That seems similar to what Grayven wants to do here - have his subordinates in the Light get families who would actually accept the work they are doing, and be able to carry their parents’ legacies, instead of just being millennials.

 

I was wondering if he would make that kind of slip-up in the last update.