With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

proactive as I am, so I though I should

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"so I thought"

 

[Handlewithcare]

Aw. If Barda didn't get it, I was hoping Prometheus would show up as a god of War and Peace (covering fringe activities like economic disruption and spycraft).

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Prometheus, the Firestealer, would be more god of Progress, Ideas and Enlightenment, right? At least, after modernity got it's hooks into him.

He would probably have no difficulty finding worshippers.

Hephesteaen will be worshipped by engineers and Prometheus by scientists.


The idea to create a unified pantheon sounds awesome, Earth and Humanity can use all the help they can get.

If the gods go the DnD route and grant believers powers they will bascially be set.

 

[Ardy]

I get the powers he's getting, but what does "Neptune's Depth" give him?

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He started to undergo character development

 

[Cuchulin]

I'd say that Superman is less like a god and more like a Classical Greek Hero as they as had cults that honored them.

 

[Darko]

I'd say that Superman is less like a god and more like a Classical Greek Hero as they as had cults that honored them.

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Though I think most of them would start after said hero died.

 

[Khettien]

Most can tell you who the Olympians are, but few outside of Japan can te you anything about the Shinto.

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Amaterasu would have an extremely strong case otherwise.

 

[Cuchulin]

Though I think most of them would start after said hero died.

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True, but Superman might just be immortal or close to it.

 

[Massgamer]

I wonder what made Tyr show up here and abandon his own pantheon since last we heard they were doing the whole prepare for apocalypse thing in general while helping villains.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

29th October 2012
03:45 GMT +3

Olympus has already started to change.

Hephaestaean told me that he considered teleporting his old workshop up here, then decided that it wouldn't be worth it. His expertise has expanded so much that it would be easier to just start again… Not that he's had time, or is likely to have time in the near future. But a oval-shaped deliberative chamber has replaced Zeus's feasting room, and… Dolmen Gates that look suspiciously like stargates have appeared near to convenient points of egress. Did he put his head together with Hecate, or has his domain expanded to the point where he can invent novel arcanotechnology without anyone's help?

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A little of column A, a little of column B... I would not be surprised if he could now cmprehend the workings of a reasonably advanced device at a glance, whether it be pure science or full magitech. Which means OL might want to be careful about his rings, or he'll turn up one day to find the Olympians running around with copies.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Idle curiosity. Not important right now, and I actively want to flip the table so it's not really a problem -for me- if something goes a little off-script.

The other matter, on the other hand…

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What's it matter where he's getting stuff, as long as it's being installed?

"I beg your pardon, my lord, but we aren't really set up to receive guests at the moment. If you had sent word ahead I would have ensured that Hephaestaean was here to greet you."

Susano-o-no-Mikoto nods politely.

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Heh. A courtesy visit on behalf of his pantheon, or a private stop-off on the way home from the Rock?

"The honourable representative has no need to apologise. This humble one was impetuously overwhelmed by curiosity. It has been a great deal of time the Gods of Japan have had direct contact with the Gods of Olympus."

Even I caught that jab. One side has a country, the other side has a hill with delusions of grandeur. But they're not exactly in competition. The Olympians might be work shy, but they don't have the same need to take advantage of their brief moment of fame to secure their metaphysiques and make themselves into something that Johnny-come-latelies do.

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Because they already did that thousands of years ago, back when culture advanced relatively slowly, thanks to limited communication between countries, cities, even towns...

I smile politely at Lady Liberty, who smiles back just as honestly. She's gone for the classical robes that look classy to most modern people but just looks a little off to someone used to Themysciran clothing. I'll be interested to see if she actually sounds French.

"You are welcome to visit for as long as you like, but I am afraid that we will be poor hosts at present."

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...Wait, what? So, a personification of the Statue of Liberty just showed up?

"It seems to me that you're the person to talk to if we want to get something done around here."

Ah. Transatlantic, with just a hint of a French accent. How marvellously fake.

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...Or is this a Shinto megami just cosplaying the role? Because Japanese culture is fast-moving and ephemeral in their worship?

"Madam, I may properly be likened to a sixty year old sea mine: reasonably safe if left to my own devices, but prone to explode if prodded. The question of whether or not I can 'get things done' is not precisely relevant."

"Alright, then let's save us the trouble of you and Mister Mikoto talking around each other for hours. Hephaestus wants to rebuild his pantheon into something that humans all over the world will worship. But how about trying something different?"

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And that is an apt description of himself. OL has been showing a lot of self-insight since his last holiday. Definitely good for him.

"We're already working on aliens, if that's what you mean."

"I mean, why not make it part of a wider revival of other faiths?"

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So... An international economy of worship? With similar faiths like the abrahamic ones as one of those mega-corporations?

"Lack of a personal stake."

"Oh?" She raises her eyebrows. "Your negotiations with the Silver City resulted in necromancers being able to reach their dead for the first time in history, and your provocation turned more waverers away from their 'default' religion. Superheroes are already objects of reverence. Do you know how many people worship Superman?"

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Hey, by the Thirtieth Century, it's a recognised faith. It's got to start somewhere.

"'Worship' as in 'literally pray to', or as in 'revere greatly'?"

"Why split hairs? The Roman Catholics had indulgences and crucifixes. He has t-shirts and posable action figures. People all across the world cheer on his deeds, wear his symbol and call out to him in times of hardship."

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And more often than not, he responds to those prayers... By rescuing people or stopping natural disasters... Dammit.

"The difference may only exist in peoples' minds, but it does exist there. There's a big difference between passively accepting converts and actively proselytising. And yes, I do know roughly how many people worship him and I know roughly what he thinks of them. He has absolutely no desire to be a god."

"Then he should consider being less godly."

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He can't help what people think of him, can he?

Susano-o-no-Mikoto looks a little uncomfortable at how assertive she's being, but he holds his tongue.

"Our pantheon is expanding into new markets. People shouldn't be tied to contracts with gods they don't want. But that doesn't mean we have to compete."

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Forgive the young one, honoured elder. The young are hasty and foolish, they have no patience for proper politeness.

"To paraphrase G'kar, I have no desire to replace a monopoly with another monopoly. I'm helping Hephaestaean because he took a big risk to help me and I owe him at least this much. Look, could you explain what you actually want and leave convincing me until after I've said 'no'?"

"My proposal is that non-monotheistic religions should act in concert… At least, in the initial stages, in order to normalise theological pluralism and defray potential backlash."

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Oh, she is definitely a creation of Modern Japan. There's few other places that could take such a... Business-like approach to faith.

"Not a terrible idea. But the founding gods of Shinto are already worshipped by the Japanese, and… No one else. You've been expanding by recruiting people like you, who are already revered in other places. The Olympians are going to be trying to convert people who've heard of them but see them as something other."

"Greater risk of failure, but with that comes a greater potential reward. We'd like to improve your odds and take a little of the reward ourselves. I've read the digest version of your thaumic research write-ups. Earth has more than enough raw magic to sustain all of its gods. And people are mentally flexible enough to accept gods with overlapping responsibilities. We could form a united pantheon for the entire world."

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And she's proposing a corporate merger. How modern of her.

"A trade association?"

"By setting certain standards of behavior, we could limit the influence of those who… Struggle to remember that we're here to work with mortals. You may find our help useful if some of the Othrysians don't cope very well with freedom."

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I could see a lot of the smaller, less-widely worshipped pantheons agreeing. The various African ethnic groups or half-forgotten pantheons like the South American faiths.

Ah… This is what I get for not having a plan in place: people expecting me to decide things. I mean, I could just say 'Hail Eris' and ignore the issue, but I don't think-.

"This one apologises for interrupting this most worthy discussion, but this one had been under the impression that there were no other gods in residence."

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...Not in an official capacity, I would expect?

I turn, following his gaze upwards to the true summit of Mount Olympus, the counterpart of 'the Throne of Zeus' of the material mountain. On the absolute peak, a man holds his arms over his head in triumph.

"There… Aren't. Please excuse me while I go and find out who that is."

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Oh, don't tell me...

I fly towards the man, who lowers his arms and starts to look around and appreciate the view. He's dressed like a mountaineer from the mid-twentieth century, back when silk and tweed were the clothing of choice rather than modern thermals. His chin is covered in a mid-length black beard, and there's a small amount of black hair poking out from under his hat at the back. He has a climbing axe in his right hand-. No, strapped to the stump of his right forearm, a loop of rope slung over his shoulder and a heavy pack on his back.

He turns back my way, sees me and waves his left hand before sitting down on the rock and doffing his pack. "Ho, Lantern!"

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And that's entirely how I'd expect a Nordic god to turn up.

"Hello? I'm sorry, but we're not really open for business at the moment."

"I know. Kratos told me that you were hiring, so I thought I should be proactive and apply for the job in person."

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Word really does spread fast, eh?

"Ah, well, I appreciate it, Mister..?"

"Týr. Or call me Tyr; I know English-speakers don't like the accents."

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Tyr, the evenhanded. Pick up that phone, Lothlo called it.

"Oh. Excellent. I actually recommended you for the position two years ago, so I'm very glad that you're here. Um, what's in the bag?"

He wraps his hook around the straps holding the back closed and tugs, revealing...

"Five thousand years worth of references. I'm eager to join a pantheon that's as proactive as I am, so I though I should make a strong impression. How am I doing?"

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Well, he's keen. Let's hope Hephaestaean appreciates that go-getter attitude.

So, an actual applicant turned up. I wonder if this will be the only god arriving, or if others will show up before long? Perhaps others will visit looking for positions the standing Olympians have been neglecting. At any rate, this certainly won't make Hephaestaean any less busy. Amazing how much a simple change can do for a body.

 

[ForeverShogo]

I'll be honest, I never really understood what the Japanese gods were supposed to be doing.

Like, I get they're supposed to be "adopting" nascent entities . . . But how does it benefit them? People aren't literally worshipping Lady Liberty, and even if they were they aren't worshipping her as part of the Japanese pantheon. I'd also assume once it gets out it'd even hurt her standing a little that the spirit of a national symbol is cavorting with the gods of an entirely different nation instead of trying to have some weird American pantheon.

Also, for the standing of Heaven, I'm a little confused. Shouldn't their incursion have secured believers instead of turning them away from the "default"? I could swear they mostly just launched an alpha strike against demon worshippers and the like, and that what they were striking was common knowledge. I'd have thought it being known the angels actually sent out a strike force to smite various evildoers would be good for reaffirming faith.

 

[Darko]

I wonder what made Tyr show up here and abandon his own pantheon since last we heard they were doing the whole prepare for apocalypse thing in general while helping villains.

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The Olympians are going to be more proactive now and Tyr also seems to be fairly proactive.

Maybe he didn't like his old pantheon.

 

[Vaermina]

I smile politely at Lady Liberty, who smiles back just as honestly. She's gone for the classical robes that look classy to most modern people but just looks a little off to someone used to Themysciran clothing. I'll be interested to see if she actually sounds French.

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Why is a member of the Force of July suddenly in this?

"Oh. Excellent. I actually recommended you for the position two years ago, so I'm very glad that you're here. Um, what's in the bag?"

He wraps his hook around the straps holding the back closed and tugs, revealing...

"Five thousand years worth of references. I'm eager to join a pantheon that's as proactive as I am, so I though I should make a strong impression. How am I doing?"

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Tyr is actually worse then Ares... So the amount Zoat is going to have to retcon here should be hilarious

 

[GhostKing 666]

I wonder where Loki sits on the spectrum of "actively wants to watch the world burn because it would be funny, had monster kids who wanted to destroy the world from birth and deserved everything he got" to "trickster who was compelled to solve basically all of the Aesir's problems, including the ones he didn't cause, was punished wildly out of proportion whenever he did do something, had all his not attractive children bound, exiled and/or enslaved and has been tortured for unknown millennia while chained to a rock with the entrails of his attractive children".

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Loki's a bit hard to predict because we don't actually know what he's actually about.


Turns out, even though they did have their own writing system, the norse didn't actually write their own myths down. So, the earliest records we've got of Loki come from two sources written after Scandinavia turned christian.

 

[Ngamer11]

Also, for the standing of Heaven, I'm a little confused. Shouldn't their incursion have secured believers instead of turning them away from the "default"? I could swear they mostly just launched an alpha strike against demon worshippers and the like, and that what they were striking was common knowledge. I'd have thought it being known the angels actually sent out a strike force to smite various evildoers would be good for reaffirming faith.

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It might be the fact that they admitted that they usually don't take literal orders from the Christian God, meaning they can be deceived and are fallible.

 

[Rebu]

Susano-o-no-Mikoto looks a little uncomfortable at how assertive she's being, but he holds his tongue

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Yeah, the anthropomorphic personification of freedom should exercise a little more restraint.

 

[Darko]

I'll be honest, I never really understood what the Japanese gods were supposed to be doing.

Like, I get they're supposed to be "adopting" nascent entities . . . But how does it benefit them? People aren't literally worshipping Lady Liberty, and even if they were they aren't worshipping her as part of the Japanese pantheon. I'd also assume once it gets out it'd even hurt her standing a little that the spirit of a national symbol is cavorting with the gods of an entirely different nation instead of trying to have some weird American pantheon

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Well on the Vertigo comics, which features the Shinto, gods can die and stop existing if people stop believing in them and stop worshipping them.

The Shinto essentially acquire various ways which can allow them to absorb the worship and reverence certain people and objects receive, this making sure they can keep their power and continue living.

The things may not be worshipped, but people still think about them and may view them in a reverent way.

It's possible that they can either absorb the reverence certain things have or the people can give it to them.

In this story gods don't require mortal faith to survive, so may the Shinto are recruiting them for an extra power boost or because they want to prevent a potential rival pantheon from forming.

Also, for the standing of Heaven, I'm a little confused. Shouldn't their incursion have secured believers instead of turning them away from the "default"? I could swear they mostly just launched an alpha strike against demon worshippers and the like, and that what they were striking was common knowledge. I'd have thought it being known the angels actually sent out a strike force to smite various evildoers would be good for reaffirming faith

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It probably did increase the number of true believers, but that doesn't mean that others still can't choose different faiths.

Yeah, Angels came down to smite demons.

They also attacked places with no demon activity and killed people that criticized them, so people may not be so stocked on them.

The high standards that they have to get into Heaven also may have turned some people away since they think they can't meet those standards and they don't want to end up on fire for the rest of their existence.

 

[Khornelius]

Me: Please tell me that he brought a thesis on his past 5000 years of battles, wars, duels, all things relating to War. Please for the love of the lord, tell my he didn't being a bag containing 5000 years worth of kills? Please tell me it's not a BAG! OF! HEADS!

Tech-Priest Khornelius 3:16: Whatever the result, he is certainly qualified for the position.
(Looks at the Lady Liberty and Susano-o-no-Mikoto)

Tech-Priest Khornelius 3:16: Would either of you care for an Oil Margarita? Only two Divine-Entities have spit them back in my face.

 

[Darko]

Which means OL might want to be careful about his rings, or he'll turn up one day to find the Olympians running around with copies.

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He may not mind that so much.

If Heoh can make him rings then Paul may honestly be happy and he'll have another source for power rings, and this one won't be pure evil.

Wait, what? So, a personification of the Statue of Liberty just showed up?

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Yep.

...Or is this a Shinto megami just cosplaying the role? Because Japanese culture is fast-moving and ephemeral in their worship

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Nope, it's the Statue of Liberty.

The Shinto apparently acquire newly emerging entities to add to their pantheon.

They also have Marilyn Monroe and King Kong.

Oh, she is definitely a creation of Modern Japan. There's few other places that could take such a... Business-like approach to faith

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Except America.

And that's entirely how I'd expect a Nordic god to turn up.

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I was expecting a dragon ship to burst through the wall and a god to start throwing an axe around.

So, an actual applicant turned up. I wonder if this will be the only god arriving, or if others will show up before long? Perhaps others will visit looking for positions the standing Olympians have been neglecting. At any rate, this certainly won't make Hephaestaean any less busy. Amazing how much a simple change can do for a body.

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Well several of the gods that Paul talked to weren't interested in returning, so maybe Heph will have to replace them as well.

 

[Vaermina]

Yeah, the anthropomorphic personification of freedom should exercise a little more restraint.

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No... The anthropomorphic representation of freedom is Scott Free.

Lady Liberty is a D list super villain from the Force of July.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

Well on the Vertigo u overseas, which features the Shinto, gods can die and stop existing if people stop believing in them and stop worshipping them.

The Shinto essentially acquire various ways which can allow them to absorb the worship and reverence certain people and objects receive, this making sure they can keep their power and continue living.

The things may not be worshipped, but people still think about them and may view them in a reverent way.

It's possible that they can either absorb the reverence certain things have or the people can give it to them.

In this story gods don't require mortal faith to survive, so may the Shinto are recruiting them for an extra power boost or because they want to prevent a potential rival pantheon from forming.

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Interestingly, both the Shin and Shen (the Shen more so) are known to pay taxes on their divine income. Very likely, the Shin are offering protection from whatever spiritual predators might try to eat a freshly formed god and the benefits of the divine infrastructure they established back when prayer flowed like water in exchange for a portion of whatever faith income the new hires accrue.

No... The anthropomorphic representation of freedom is Scott Free.

Lady Liberty is a D list super villain from the Force of July.

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There can be more than one anthropomorphic personification of someone. The whole divine trade union is predicated on that fact.

 

[Mr Zoat]

"But an oval"
"time since"

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"so I thought"

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Also, for the standing of Heaven, I'm a little confused. Shouldn't their incursion have secured believers instead of turning them away from the "default"? I could swear they mostly just launched an alpha strike against demon worshippers and the like, and that what they were striking was common knowledge. I'd have thought it being known the angels actually sent out a strike force to smite various evildoers would be good for reaffirming faith.

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Because it turned Heaven from a vaguely good thing into a concrete thing, denying them the ability to project their desires onto it.

Or to put it another way, have you ever read The Book of Job?

Nope, it's the Statue of Liberty.

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No, she looks like the Statue of Liberty, but she's actually the goddess of the enlightenment concept of liberty.

 

[Chaoswind]

Most can tell you who the Olympians are, but few outside of Japan can tell you anything about the Shinto

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Not true at all since Anime has become a global power house, most people won't be able to accurately assign a shinto major God with its porfolio, but naming a couple of them would be significantly easier.

Also in raw numbers of religious adherents its probably the Indian gods that are on the absolute top after the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[néocorvinus]

I wonder where Loki sits on the spectrum of "actively wants to watch the world burn because it would be funny, had monster kids who wanted to destroy the world from birth and deserved everything he got" to "trickster who was compelled to solve basically all of the Aesir's problems, including the ones he didn't cause, was punished wildly out of proportion whenever he did do something, had all his not attractive children bound, exiled and/or enslaved and has been tortured for unknown millennia while chained to a rock with the entrails of his attractive children".

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My personal favourite is: Loki was a dick but not that bad until the Aesirs took care of his children because they were fated to cause Ragnarok.

 

[Darko]

Not true at all since Anime has become a global power house, most people won't be able to accurately assign a shinto major God with its porfolio, but naming a couple of them would be significantly easier.

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True, but I still think the Greek gods are more well known to most people outside of Japan, both in who they are and about stories connected to them.

 

[Bud-E]

"Then he should consider being less godly."


"By setting certain standards of behavior, we could limit the influence of those who… Struggle to remember that we're here to work with mortals. You may find our help useful if some of the Othrysians don't cope very well with freedom."

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I kind of agree with Liberty on this if Superman and by extension the League want to not be seen as modern-day gods they should be more thoughtful of their public image. It's also the god's fault for being so inactive and ethereal in modern times cause if people knew what gods are like and had concert proof of their existence they wouldn't think someone is a god just because they could fly and are generally benevolent. I also like this collective pantheon idea but I don't see it working there are too many big egos and too many grudges for them to act together without it getting out of hand.

 

[Darko]

I kind of agree with Liberty on this if Superman and by extension the League want to not be seen as modern-day gods they should be more thoughtful of their public image

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Unfortunately that may not help, since the League members generally possess incredible powers and continue to help people, so they'll be associated with being godlike either way.

And them trying to make themselves seem more human, or down to earth, may also not work and people could just see them as being relatable gods.

I also like this collective pantheon idea but I don't see it working there are too many big egos and too many grudges for them to act together without it getting out of hand.

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You have a good point, though I can't help but imagine Mr. World-esque like figure, maybe even Paul, trying to tie the various gods together.

Given the rise of globalization, it may be possible for such a figure to emerge.

Let's just hope he's not as creepy as the TV show version.

 

[Darko]

Here's that scene in the comics where Susanoo mentions Lady Liberty.

Spoiler

And here's the scene where we see the Shinto having objects from various faiths and how they use them.

Spoiler

 

[Bud-E]

Unfortunately that may not help, since the League members generally possess incredible powers and continue to help people, so they'll be associated with being godlike either way.

And them trying to make themselves seem more human, or down to earth, may also not work and people could just see them as being relatable gods.

You have a good point, though I can't help but imagine Mr. World-esque like figure, maybe even Paul, trying to tie the various gods together.

Given the rise of globalization, it may be possible for such a figure to emerge.

Let's just hope he's not as creepy as the TV show version.

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I could see a loose alliance like a U.N. for gods working, but all gods actively working together is only gonna cause problems. I feel the league could change its image, make itself more of a police force with a set rule book and move into something less grandiose than the watchtower and just walk around doing normal things. I'm also of the belief that if everyone is super no one is so I'm all for Paul's mass super empowering idea make powers/advanced tech available to the public, Superman would be a lot less revered if everyone could fly.

 

[Darko]

I feel the league could change its image, make itself more of a police force with a set rule book and move into something less grandiose than the watchtower and just walk around doing normal things. I'm also of the belief that if everyone is super no one is so I'm all for Paul's mass super empowering idea make powers/advanced tech available to the public, Superman would be a lot less revered if everyone could fly.

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The League already kinda does that.

They have a charter that says what they can and can't do and most of the population is unaware of the Watchtower.

Also them doing "normal things" would be incredibly inefficient and a waste of their time.

If you're talking about doing things like fixing roads or something similar, then most of them may not really be equipped to do those things plus the local government or people can already do it themselves, while fighting things like monsters is something that only the League is equipped to do.

And the League isn't exactly trying to stop people from enhancing themselves; most people may not want to be enhanced or there are laws in place to stop it from happening.