With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Mr Zoat · Sep 21, 2022

Cuchulin said:
Manchester Black almost had a good point in What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?. Problem is that Super Powered Black ops teams shouldn't operate independently or out in the open.

Chester was in the right, right up until the point where he got fixated on Superman.

_The_Bomb said:
With how absurdly powerful we routinely see Superman being, it makes me really curious what's going on with that Kryptonian OL recruited to be a lantern. The one that had a prophecy around him.

Imagine what he'll be capable of once he gets up to a basic level of power ring proficiency.

It was a Guardian prophecy that the SI doesn't know, and in any case 'Sodam' is actually a fairly common Daxamite name.

Ngamer11 said:
Depending on how compatible he is with the orange light, I can easily see Sodam Yat making Honor Guard. In one story, he became the last Guardian of the Universe.

I imagine that his foster mother would rather he had a more normal childhood.

Old Knife said:
Speaking of powerful Kryptonians, why doesn't Clark have Kryptonian crystalline armor?

He has it, he just wouldn't wear it outside of an apocalypse.

And how powerful is Connor as chosen of Helios+Nth Metal armor?

Fairly powerful.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Something got mangled here...

While inelegant, the sentence is accurate as written. But I'll change it.

I look down to where the child is curled up on the floor hugging his legs to his chest.

Thank you, corrected.

Nervaqus987 said:
Last I checked, Superman wasn't judge, jury, and executioner.

Yes, but he's part of a failing system. In the case of supervillains, him fighting them and handing them over to a prison he knows can't reliably contain them is part of the problem. With governments, his willingness to let them get away with anything is a big problem.

Duke Long said:
'A moment later I feel'
'their way'

Thank you, corrected.

'mind-affecting'

I think that's right as-is.

Ngamer11 · Sep 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I imagine that his foster mother would rather he had a more normal childhood.

Are you referring to the comics, or the version in this story? If the latter, who's his foster mother? Also, all this discussion about Sodam Yat makes me want to see a little more of him, especially if Paul will be having a short space adventure with Superman.

Mr Zoat · Sep 21, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
Are you referring to the comics, or the version in this story?

This story. I think he was stuck with his natural parents until he left Daxam in the comics.

If the latter, who's his foster mother?

Lantern Coutara.

Also, all this discussion about Sodam Yat makes me want to see a little more of him, especially if Paul will be having a short space adventure with Superman.

The SI isn't cruel enough to bring a child on a mission like this.

Ngamer11 · Sep 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
This story. I think he was stuck with his natural parents until he left Daxam in the comics.

Lantern Coutara.

The SI isn't cruel enough to bring a child on a mission like this.

In that case, I'd like to see Paul interact with Sodam Yat, Coutara, and Taranna just to see how these Lanterns fight and spend their off time as a family. It would also be nice to see a few people from Tillettit who still refer to Paul as 'Lord', like with Jade's training roommate.

FreeGod · Sep 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Yes, but he's part of a failing system. In the case of supervillains, him fighting them and handing them over to a prison he knows can't reliably contain them is part of the problem. With governments, his willingness to let them get away with anything is a big problem.

I think that Superman considers dealing with governments misdeeds a job for Clark Kent.

Tyrantviewer · Sep 21, 2022

I would like to Recommend the Overly Sarcastic Podcast's videos on superman

and

Which cover things like, why Superman killing everyone is actually a bad thing, and why a number of "gritty" depictions of superman fall flat, and how to actually use the character.

I think Zoat is doing fine, this arc is all about reconciling how Paul finds traditional Superheroism inefficient with his desire to be a paragon hero, a disonance he didn't realize until he learned what alt Scott was doing.

Overall Paul has been doing a good job, working with various governments and authorities to change and do thing traditional heroes don't. I look forward to how this arc shakes out though, in terms of sorting out Paul's feelings and what will change with him going forward.

_The_Bomb · Sep 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
It was a Guardian prophecy that the SI doesn't know, and in any case 'Sodam' is actually a fairly common Daxamite name

SI directly referenced the prophecy once he learned Sodam Yat's name.

"That was your-? Ah… Made him… Really angry? And partially deaf. He's not seriously hurt. Um, what's your name?"

"Sodam Yat."

Ah. Well, I hope Atrocitus wasn't too attached to that prophecy. But…

Mr Zoat · Sep 21, 2022

_The_Bomb said:
SI directly referenced the prophecy once he learned Sodam Yat's name.

He's aware that there is one, just just doesn't know what's in it.

Kind of like Anakin.

Darko · Sep 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
as feel a brief disorientation as some sort of mind affect device activates

"as I feel"

Mr Zoat said:
could maker a crumbler-borer construct and dig through the rock, but that would

"could make"

Darko · Sep 21, 2022

Nervaqus987 said:
So, I've only seen bits of the movie and skimmed the comic, but Manchester's argument is kinda........

In the movie, Manchester kills Atomic Skull after he's beaten and captured. In the comics more or less the same deal, just with some aliens and him ordering Hat to "Tell the Streets to swallow them and then rain acid on their families." which Superman stops.

It's like, my dude what do you want? Superman took down the guys causing problems and either handed them over to the proper authorities or was trying to. If you've got a problem with how they're handled in the aftermath, take it up with the guys who are supposed to be keeping them in prison or whatever, not the guy stopping the villains.

Last I checked, Superman wasn't judge, jury, and executioner.

The same applies to Batman and people sho complain about him not killing.

Darko · Sep 21, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Kid's probably also in need of a change of pants, I suspect. Assuming they allowed him any.

Assuming his species wets themselves when they're afraid.

rkyeun · Sep 21, 2022

Darko said:
Assuming his species wets themselves when they're afraid.

It may not be true with alien life, but excretion is a nearly universal response to overwhelming fear in Terran life forms. It dates all the way back to prekaryotes (ancestor of prokaryotes and eukaryotes, sister to archae), where when something attacked you, you dumped your vacuoles of sugars and poisons and wastes hoping that it would either be fed enough to think it got you or poisoned enough to be incapable of holding you, or repulsed enough to stop trying. That reasoning seems like it SHOULD apply even to alien life.

Nervaqus987 · Sep 21, 2022

Vaermina said:
Also the narrative protection of an author.

Because realistically? The instant LePaul's teleported in and killed the leader, every slave in that places head should have exploded due to a dead man switch going off.

Why would you put bombs in your food?

Mr Zoat · Sep 21, 2022

Darko said:
"as I feel"
"could make"

Thank you, corrected.

Karmic Acumen · Sep 22, 2022

Darko said:
The same applies to Batman and people sho complain about him not killing.

Still doesn't change that the US has the death penalty. Joker should have been executed the second time he went on a rampage. By the DOJ. No, I'm not buying the insanity plea.

Also, I am convinced SCOTUS would make an exception for supervillains regardless.

Assblaster5000 · Sep 22, 2022

Karmic Acumen said:
No, I'm not buying the insanity plea.

Batmite. The thing keeping Joker and most of Gotham's supervillains alive is Batmite saying they get to live. There is literally nothing anyone in any legal system can do to kill Batman's villains so long as they continue to force Batman to grow as a person/hero because of how rabid a fanboy Batmite is.

Vaermina · Sep 22, 2022

Nervaqus987 said:
Why would you put bombs in your food?

Because they weren't actually using them as food, they were using them as hostages and taunting LePaul by pretending they were food.

Assblaster5000 · Sep 22, 2022

Vaermina said:
Because they weren't actually using them as food, they were using them as hostages and taunting LePaul by pretending they were food.

... One of the Guilders literally ate one as Paragon arrived, and the leader was about to do the same before he was killed. These people were chattel firstly, and hostages to anyone that cared enough about them to try and fight The Spider Guild second.

This is a Vaermina response.

Lord Ernest · Sep 22, 2022

Assblaster5000 said:
Batmite.

I agree, but at the end of the day, Batmite=status quo. It's the nature of serialized comics itself that keeps the setting like that. Anything within the medium is just an excuse created by the writers/artists themselves to keep certain characters available.

Hate to compare, but if in a manga an enemy/villain is defeated and captured you usually wouldn't see him again unless there is a really significant event that would make it possible.

In Gotham, the Joker should not have been able to escape, and if he did, after that first time you have to present permanent solutions. Or execute him, or have him sedated forever, or anything else.

Cuchulin · Sep 22, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Chester was in the right, right up until the point where he got fixated on Superman.

Indeed, once he made it a dick measuring contest, he no longer had a point.

Ngamer11 · Sep 22, 2022

Cuchulin said:
Indeed, once he made it a dick measuring contest, he no longer had a point.

That's why I really like the version of him here in the story. I want to see how powerful he could be after Awakening.

Mr Zoat · Sep 22, 2022

18th December 2012
22:59 GMT

Superman looks a little green. Looks like he didn't get there in time for everyone, either.

"Do you want to head home?"

"No. This wasn't the first time I've seen this."

"The Sheeda?"

"That was the first time I saw industrial murder supported by an entire civilisation. But the first time I saw a lot of dead people in one place was after an apartment fire in Lahore. I'd been Superman for about two years at the time. I saw the news on television, flew there as fast as I could, and..."

I nod. "I remember reading about that. Ah. Do you want to talk about why I did what I did here, or do you want to leave it?"

He looks down at the ground, eyes narrowing as he combines x-ray and telescopic vision to take in as much as possible.

"Does this sort of thing happen a lot out here?"

"If you mean 'somewhere in the universe', then, probably. If you mean 'do I have to deal with it regularly', no. There was… Something not too dissimilar when we were fighting the Reach at the very edge of their territory, but Vega wasn't this bad."

"That part of the Guild didn't eat people?"

"That part of the Guild had run out of people to eat and were realistic about their circumstances." I shrug as we watch the Spider Guild ships under the Queen's authority come in to land. "And the Queen hadn't really had any choice in her diet prior to their Elder's deaths."

"Okay. Could you have stunned the Elder?" I glance-. "I'm not saying that you should have, I'm asking if you could."

"Almost certainly. It would have taken me an extra fraction of a second which might have given the robots time to shoot a hostage or two, but I'm aware that there's a difference between killing someone and failing to save them. But if I had… What happens then?"

"You tell me."

"Feigning surrender is a war crime on Earth, though I can't immediately call to mind any trials taking place."

"I don't think he surrendered."

"Then it's treason during wartime, and that will get you executed in America too. The other Elders had surrendered, and that's usually definitive. Even if I'd taken him alive, he'd have been executed… Well, now, and frankly keeping him under control would have been a distraction."

"And the wounded spider?"

"He knew what the Elders had decided. He backed the renegade faction. I don't think that the Queen will demand the death of everyone here, but any senior people who are still alive are probably…"

Ring, summary of Spider Guild punishments?

"Apparently, the Spider Guild version of 'decimation' is 'halving'."

"Will she do that?"

"If she wants to keep control, she'll… Have to at least do something along those lines. And if she.. doesn't, then she's in violation of her treaty obligations with her new neighbours and they might decide to finish this place off for her."

"How many worlds does the Spider Guild control?"

"I don't know. I know it's at least two hundred and-" He twitches. "-eighty. The actual… Core of their space along with what is probably their homeworld is a long way from here, but they're willing to travel very long distances."

"What do they eat there?"

"Oh, they have a licensing system for importers. My personal suspicion is that they maintain a breeding population, but that's more because I've tried to think how I'd handle it if I were them than any actual intelligence."

I give a black-humoured laugh as the ship lands and the Queen exits the landing ramp.

"Of course, you have to remember that they're not species-prejudiced. They'll eat each other, too. One of their insults is 'you're so stupid that even your mate wouldn't eat you'."

"Yes, I-."

The Queen picks up the most senior surviving member of the garrison and shoves his head into her mouth, holding his convulsing body in her hands as she chews at a leisurely pace.

"I see. And you're okay with this."

"If I was okay with it, I wouldn't have intervened. I'm not okay with piracy and cannibalism. That meant that the Guild had to go. I'd prefer to avoid extermination where reform is possible, which means defeating them and handing them over to the Queen because she's the only person they'll accept."

"Why not just isolate them?"

"Because space is really big. And while individual septs don't mind other septs getting knocked back every so often, they will send a relief force if aliens look like they're going to knock one out. And because without a plan they probably would end up eating each other because they're dependent on imports. And because all the local stellar nations want them destroyed. And because the Orange Lantern Corps is too busy with the Reach to intervene in force, and the Reach are worse."

"Worse than a civilisation of cannibals?"

"The Spider Guild rarely exterminates intelligent species. The Reach does as a matter of course. We actually.. have interview recordings of species on the verge of extinction, and they're so brainwashed that they're happy about it. And…"

I make a helpless gesture with both arms as the Queen keeps eating.

"This is me trying to be nice."

"What would you have done before the JSI?"

"Not sure. Killed them all and then destroyed the fleets of the nearest septs so they didn't have reinforcements to send, maybe. How about you?"

Respect to the man, he hesitates and thinks about it.

"If I hadn't seen this, I think I'd have crippled their ships and space stations and hoped they'd have the sense to quit."

"And the relief force?"

"I'd have tried to convince the locals to prepare to fight them, and try warning them off myself."

"Kal-El, this isn't just a group of raiders, this would be an actual military force. You aren't immune to levels of energy their main weapons can discharge. Spider Guild ships are heavily automated, so they aren't slowed by organic response times. I strongly recommend not trying to fight entire warfleets."

"Sometimes, you don't have a choice."

"Sometimes, you have a choice and don't see it."

I shake my head.

"I killed a wounded man I could have healed and killed people I could have contained. And for the life of me I can't see a better solution."

hance1986 · Sep 22, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
You aren't immune to levels of energy their main weapons can discharge.

should be ' to the levels '

Handlewithcare · Sep 22, 2022

Idealist vs Realist.

The question Paul is trying to answer is if it's Jaded Realist Who Just Isn't Trying Hard Enough

Cuchulin · Sep 22, 2022

There are Aliens and then there are Aliens. Superman is used to dealing those that have a more or less human like mentality.

Windona · Sep 22, 2022

Interesting. Especially since a lot of the issues are part of context. Superman is thinking on an Earth basis, because his methods are adapted to Metropolis and Earth at large. Part of OL's issues is that he is taking a Space basis and bringing it to Earth.

Chojin Patriarch · Sep 22, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
18th December 2012
22:59 GMT

Superman looks a little green. Looks like he didn't get there in time for everyone, either.

"Do you want to head home?"

No shame in calling it quits, Clark. Not everyone's cut out for this kind of... Well, there's a reason some people are left fucked up mentally and/or physically for years after any major war.

And something on this scale...

"No. This wasn't the first time I've seen this."

"The Sheeda?"

A reasonable guess. But shit can get this fucked up even in accidents.

"That was the first time I saw industrial murder supported by an entire civilisation. But the first time I saw a lot of dead people in one place was after an apartment fire in Lahore. I'd been Superman for about two years at the time. I saw the news on television, flew there as fast as I could, and..."

I nod. "I remember reading about that. Ah. Do you want to talk about why I did what I did here, or do you want to leave it?"

I don't doubt the firefighters on the scene there did all they could to comfort him, too. And they'd probably seen worse.

He looks down at the ground, eyes narrowing as he combines x-ray and telescopic vision to take in as much as possible.

"Does this sort of thing happen a lot out here?"

There's shit on the internet that makes you wonder who would film things like what they did...

And simply, some people are that fucked up...

"If you mean 'somewhere in the universe', then, probably. If you mean 'do I have to deal with it regularly', no. There was… Something not too dissimilar when we were fighting the Reach at the very edge of their territory, but Vega wasn't this bad."

"That part of the Guild didn't eat people?"

...Not once the Queen took over, at least.

"That part of the Guild had run out of people to eat and were realistic about their circumstances." I shrug as we watch the Spider Guild ships under the Queen's authority come in to land. "And the Queen hadn't really had any choice in her diet prior to their Elder's deaths."

"Okay. Could you have stunned the Elder?" I glance-. "I'm not saying that you should have, I'm asking if you could."

If the extra moment let him finish the bite he was starting on that child? Would you take that chance?

"Almost certainly. It would have taken me an extra fraction of a second which might have given the robots time to shoot a hostage or two, but I'm aware that there's a difference between killing someone and failing to save them. But if I had… What happens then?"

"You tell me."

Remember, Clark: No Geneva Conventions out here. For some races, lives are cheap.

"Feigning surrender is a war crime on Earth, though I can't immediately call to mind any trials taking place."

"I don't think he surrendered."

Just the opposite, I believe. Going by the dialogue yesterday, he was basically rebelling against the others' decision to give in.

"Then it's treason during wartime, and that will get you executed in America too. The other Elders had surrendered, and that's usually definitive. Even if I'd taken him alive, he'd have been executed… Well, now, and frankly keeping him under control would have been a distraction."

"And the wounded spider?"

Wrong place, wrong moment. If that had been the last chamber to be cleared, he might have been lucky to live...

"He knew what the Elders had decided. He backed the renegade faction. I don't think that the Queen will demand the death of everyone here, but any senior people who are still alive are probably…"

Ring, summary of Spider Guild punishments?

...Is it going to be something Clark won't really want to watch?

"Apparently, the Spider Guild version of 'decimation' is 'halving'."

"Will she do that?"

For reference, he means 'decimation' as in 'removing one tenth of the whole'. What it actually meant before people began to use it in a hyperbolic fashion....

"If she wants to keep control, she'll… Have to at least do something along those lines. And if she.. doesn't, then she's in violation of her treaty obligations with her new neighbours and they might decide to finish this place off for her."

"How many worlds does the Spider Guild control?"

If nothing else, it'll make it easier for her to control them if they're her offspring, with her programming.

"I don't know. I know it's at least two hundred and-" He twitches. "-eighty. The actual… Core of their space along with what is probably their homeworld is a long way from here, but they're willing to travel very long distances."

"What do they eat there?"

With a population that large? Probably anything they can.

"Oh, they have a licensing system for importers. My personal suspicion is that they maintain a breeding population, but that's more because I've tried to think how I'd handle it if I were them than any actual intelligence."

I give a black-humoured laugh as the ship lands and the Queen exits the landing ramp.

Let's hope they aren't quite that intelligent.

It would make it all the more horrific.

"Of course, you have to remember that they not species-prejudiced. They'll eat each other, too. One of their insults is 'you're so stupid that even your mate wouldn't eat you'."

"Yes, I-."

Gee, how delightful. But I expect they'd rather have non-Spider flesh if they could.

The Queen picks up the most senior surviving member of the garrison and shoves his head into her mouth, holding his convulsing body in her hands as she chews at a leisurely pace.

"I see. And you're okay with this."

...It says a lot that he's simply watching this, and not looking away or moving to stop her. Probably too fatigued by the things he's seen today...

"If I was okay with it, I wouldn't have intervened. I'm not okay with piracy and cannibalism. That meant that the Guild had to go. I'd prefer to avoid extermination where reform is possible, which means defeating them and handing them over to the Queen because she's the only person they'll accept."

"Why not just isolate them?"

...Even though acceptance probably means a good chance of being devoured. Alien mindsets and moralities...

"Because space is really big. And while individual septs don't mind other septs getting knocked back every so often, they will send a relief force if aliens look like they're going to knock one out. And because without a plan they probably would end up eating each other because they're dependent on imports. And because all the local stellar nations want them destroyed. And because the Orange Lantern Corps is too busy with the Reach to intervene in force, and the Reach are worse."

Sort of a 'we may not like those guys, but we can't let the food think they can fight back against us all.' logic, then. Half of their power comes from other species fear of being captured by them...

"Worse than a civilisation of cannibals?"

"The Spider Guild rarely exterminates intelligent species. The Reach does as a matter of course. We actually.. have interview recordings of species on the verge of extinction, and they're so brainwashed that they're happy about it. And…"

Going to their deaths with a smile, huh? At that point, they're probably better off dead anyway...

I make a helpless gesture with both arms as the Queen keeps eating.

"This is me trying to be nice."

I'm guessing there would be a lot more orange if he weren't.

"What would you have done before the JSI?"

"Not sure. Killed them all and then destroyed the fleets of the nearest septs so they didn't have reinforcements to send, maybe. How about you?"

...Which would probably result in you having to go after their neighbours, and then the neighbours after that to stop a chain of reprisals.

Respect to the man, he hesitates and thinks about it.

"If I hadn't seen this, I think I'd have crippled their ships and space stations and hoped they'd have the sense to quit."

They wouldn't. Sadly, they would not quit. And I think you realise that now.

"And the relief force?"

"I'd have tried to convince the locals to prepare to fight them, and try warning them off myself."

That would just get you shot in the face with their biggest gun... They need to send a message, after all...

"Kal-El, this isn't just a group of raiders, this would be an actual military force. You aren't immune to levels of energy their main weapons can discharge. Spider Guild ships are heavily automated, so they aren't slowed by organic response times. I strongly recommend not trying to fight entire warfleets."

"Sometimes, you don't have a choice."

...That much is true, yes. But it's still better to not have to in the first place.

"Sometimes, you have a choice and don't see it."

I shake my head.

"I killed a wounded man I could have healed and killed people I could have contained. And for the life of me I can't see a better solution."

And that's at the root of this whole issue, isn't it? You want to be able to see a better way, but life just won't play along...

Hopefully, seeing what he did won't leave Clark too messed up. Last thing we need is a Gangbuster incident. But at least now, he has some insight into why OL works the way he does. Ultimately, I think OL might need to compartmentalise his methods more. Like Windona said, he's using the methods developed for Space on Earth, and Earth just doesn't work that way... But he's clearly struggling to build his own 'Earth rules of engagement' for himself. Perhaps a bit of time working with other super-heroic groups might help him recalibrate.

Cuchulin · Sep 22, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
For reference, he means 'decimation' as in 'removing one tenth of the whole'. What it actually meant before people began to use it in a hyperbolic fashion....

Yes, though the original Roman version was killing every tenth member of a Legion to stiffen the spines of the rest.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Gee, how delightful. But I expect they'd rather have non-Spider flesh if they could.

Almost certainly.

Duke Long · Sep 22, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
you have to remember that they not species-prejudiced

'they're'

Mr Zoat · Sep 22, 2022

hance1986 said:
should be ' to the levels '

No, I think that's okay.

Duke Long said:
'they're'

Thank you, corrected.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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If you see a God on the road fuck it!

lord of all I survey

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