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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. WhiteNoise

    WhiteNoise Getting out there.

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    I didn't say the BSC strawman of "fertile hybrids are possible". As you say, there are problems with that. (Though almost any species concept has edge cases that are hard problems). I talked directly about observed gene flows. If the genes don't really flow between two populations, and there's little chance of that happening anytime soon, there's usually very limited utility in considering them part of the same species. Conversely, if the genes intermix freely in the wild, it's kind of ludicrous to declare the subpopulations to be different species anymore than blue-eyed and brown-eyed humans would be different species. Between these extremes are trickier cases. One can argue about where the exact species line is in mallards vs other ducks1, but cryptic species are considered separate species for good reason -- if we didn't care about gene flows, we could lump them together as folk taxonomy would.

    This all fails for asexual species, of course. And plants are ridiculously promiscuous, and tolerate polyploidy more than animals.

    Chain species present the same line-drawing problem for any species concept, even purely morphological ones.



    1Most ducks keep to their own populations. Mallards will fuck anything, and they're fertile with a lot of other duck populations, to the point where people start worrying about "genetic pollution" in ways that start to sound like Nazi propaganda.
     
  2. Coda

    Coda Not too sore, are you?

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    I mean, I recognize your point, but there are a lot of reasons besides genetic compatibility that genes may not transfer between populations. Geographic range, for example -- American cats are exceptionally unlikely to breed with African cats, but they're both uncontroversially Felis catus. So you can't restrict consideration only to observed gene flows. And even our own genome is the result of interspecies breeding with Homo neandertalensis and Homo denisova.

    Dogs also make for an exceptionally confusing case, because there are obvious physical incompatibilities between some breeds, and less obvious (but well-known to breeders) fatal gene interactions between some breeds, and the morphological differences between dog breeds go far beyond what would be enough to make biologists suspect a different species if we didn't already know any better.

    So it is as you say -- there is no good way of defining what a "species" actually is, so we can't really judge the clickers by any strict definition.
     
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  3. Threadmarks: Gammadion (part 20)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    14th March
    22:59 GMT +1


    "Oh."

    I… Consider saying something, but I think it's better to let her work through this by herself for a moment.

    I think I remember that the Earth Prime version of Wewelsburg Castle was some sort of SS facility. The Earth 16 version was instead technically controlled by the SS, but was mostly used as the centre of operations for the Thule Society. Which I imagine Himmler was tickled pink about, being the giant magic fanboy that he was. They actually based the Spear of Destiny's aegis here rather than in Berlin, a decision which allowed the Thulist magicians to monitor it full time but left it a little exposed. Once the US 3rd Armoured Division captured it, their attached shaman was able to end the spell and render what was left of the Third Reich open to Allied superheroes.

    Of course, by that stage it probably only knocked a few weeks off the war…

    "That is… What is it used for?"

    "Part of it is a museum. Another is a youth hostel. And there's a fire station for the village."

    "The-. The village is underwater on my Earth. The area was cleared after the war."

    "Who owns it?"

    "It is a Protectorate training centre, where the next generation of heroes are taught to use their powers."

    "Not a Thulist chantry?"

    "Thulist? No. They had little impact on the war. Certainly, they had no need for a castle. Were things different here?"

    "Without a kryptonian or Kryptonian weapons, the National Socialists relied on magic to keep out Allied superheroes. And of course, with no Overman, Germany's greatest hero was Captain Nazi."

    "National Soc-." She frowns. "Unless he was actually from Bavaria, and his name was a joke? I don't think that he would call himself 'Nazi'."

    Huh. Obvious, when you think about it.

    "Albrecht Krieger?" She shakes her head. A fortunate escape for Lucky Hans, then. "He was pretty powerful, but he was created by magic and I.. guess that your Germany didn't get heavily enough into that."

    "No. The Fuhrer put a great deal of resources into understanding the technical data taken from Overman's pod. Since the returns were good, he would not have felt the need to continue working with such people. Germans were not comfortable with magic at the time."

    She shakes her head.

    "There is nothing for me here."

    "The.. hostel part is still open. We can probably go in-."

    "No, it… I should stop looking for points of similarity. That is a path only to disappointment." She turns away from the castle to look at me. "What happened to him?"

    "Albrecht?" She nods. "He survived the war and went underground with his brother Wolf. They turned up in various places, working with… We'd call them 'fascist' groups."

    "Italian expatriates?"

    "No, right-wing, anti-Semitic, militant nationalists. Even tried living in America for a while, at the height of the Cold War."

    "What is the 'Cold War'?"

    "After National Socialist Germany was defeated, Europe was split between America and Company in the West and the Soviet Union in the East. Nuclear weapons meant that direct warfare was considered to be too risky by both sides, but they both hated each other, so… A war that never saw them directly fighting one another." I exhale sharply through my nose. "The Americans wanted a powerful supersoldier badly enough that Albrecht nearly got a job." I shrug. "It didn't work out. They actually took part in an attack on the Watchtower in twenty ten, with help from National Socialist Russians."

    She frowns. "Russians?"

    "Yes."

    "Russians who live in Russia?"

    "Yes."

    "But they are not Slavic? They were from another ethnic group?"

    "No, no, mostly they were Slavs."

    "Were they there to die in the service of the Master Race?"

    "No." I think for a moment. "Well, they didn't think so. That might have been the Kriegers' plan. But I think they just tippexed what Hitler wrote about Slavs in their copies of Mein Kampf. But we won and they lost. The Kriegers escaped, and next time I ran into them was in Brazil."

    "Does Brazil have a National Socialist government? Or a.. fascist government?"

    "Not any more. They had an… Interest in a local man, but we were there first. We killed them, picked up a rather large bounty payment and I sent the Spear of Destiny to Atlantis for safe keeping."

    "His spear was really the Spear of Destiny?"

    "It's a very powerful magic spear. I don't know what its origin was, or whether it's the same spear mentioned in whatever arcane text you're thinking of."

    "What did he want with the man in Brazil?"

    "That's… Something I should probably check that he's okay with you knowing." I break eye contact, looking around the night time German countryside. "Since it doesn't look like the Justice League is going to be able to send you home this evening, have you given any thought to where you'd want to stay?"

    "Not Germany, please."

    "Yes, I guessed. And because -with all due-."

    "You want me where you can see me."

    "But you'd-."

    She nods. "But not in a location that you consider secure. So not your mountain or your Superman's fortress. Are you suggesting your home?"

    "I was going to suggest a hotel. You're welcome to my settee if you want it, but I think you might prefer a bed."

    "I am hardly likely to sleep. Is there really nowhere on the Earth where National Socialists are in the ascendancy?"

    "There… Are… A few isolated places inside some countries, but I don't know anyone in any of them. If you really want to meet them then I suppose that in the interests of balance I should let you, but they don't openly run hotels." She doesn't say anything for a few moments. "I can recommend a hotel-."

    "Yes, that will-. I was just thinking about what I could do with myself while I am here. I cannot help in reopening the portal, but I will not be work-shy."

    Um.

    15th March
    17:29 GMT -5


    Kaldur said yes.

    "Everyone, this is Overgirl."

    But…

    Canis looks curious. Wallace and Richard regard me with incredulity. Ghia'ta and Arisia look like they know they're missing something but aren't sure what it is. Raquel has skipped straight to glaring. And the rest of the team don't look all that happy.

    "She's going to be working with us for a little while."
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  4. thebishop8

    thebishop8 Umm, ackchyually...

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    Remove a full stop at the end.

    If she's actually sticking around longer than this episode, I'm sure Maxx will be thrilled.
     
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  5. doug89

    doug89 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I've only picked up little bits of the movie with osmosis, but this arc suddenly reminded me of A Christmas Carol, with Orange Lantern as the Ghost of Christmas Nazi National Socialist Future.

    Hopefully Paul will take her to a white supremacist gathering to give her the full experience.

     
  6. Yog

    Yog Know what you're doing yet?

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    If Germany 10 has little experience with magic, a valid method of changing Overgirl's perspective could be introducing her to people like Angelika (or that angel dude), who could tell her that God is against racism, or to Rama Khan / Teth Adom, who have literal Divine Right of Kings and credible claim to otherwordly wisdom.

    Speaking of, what happened to Themyscira 10?

    Oh, and, in principle, visiting Gorilla City could also be eye-opening for her.
     
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  7. TotalAbsolutism

    TotalAbsolutism Magnificent Bastard Moderator

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    I think you meant 'with all due' here.
     
  8. w34v3r

    w34v3r Versed in the lewd.

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    Ok would it be too much to ask how she justifies the camps?

    I mean the ghettos and the purges I'm sure she's immunized on.

    But the camps where people were tortured, starved, brutalized, maimed, and then punished for the above in a cycle that terminated only in some form of brutal and overly extended execution procedure where the victims were made to marinate in the process while the soldiers looked on for jollies.

    She needs to understand what 'national socialist' means to the rest of the universe and why.
     
  9. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    Probably just most of the rest of the planet (in a wide range of universes). The rest of the universe either hasn't heard of it, associates a translation of the term with something else, or is part of a very small group that both knows that sort of detail about Earth history, and has some degree of emotional connection to it.
     
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  10. moralrelativity

    moralrelativity Know what you're doing yet?

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    here -> there
    Company -> company
     
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  11. Titanacoracy101

    Titanacoracy101 Making the rounds.

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    Raquel no. I can tell whats about to happen and don't do it. Do not say something to antagonize or upset the Naz- National Socialist super-hero...ish who can bend you like a paperclip.

    There's standing up for what you believe in and then there is being a lemming. Don't be a lemming
     
  12. Darko

    Darko I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Zoat said that the people of earth 10 consider the Holocaust to be a harsh but necessary measure. She probably doesn't like the torturing of the prisoners part, that is if they tell them that in schools and not just say the prisoners were treated humanely and euthanised in a peaceful manner.

    As for Angelica and Zauriel, that could work, but remember she may not be that into christianity to begin with and may not care what Jehovah thinks on the matter, Paul himself doesn't really care either, though he probably approves of the anti-racism thing.
    The same goes with Rama and Teth, she may not care what their gods, or magic land in Rama's case, think.
    Though being beaten by a member of what she would consider an inferior race would be both funny, for us, and eye opening for her.

    Is she going to join the team?
    I know that some will object, but remember that they let Loriel join and she participated in the angelic invasion of earth which was responsible for the death of several innocent people, Paul and Ted Kord among them, as well as nearly burning several people to death when she attacked that brothel.
    Overgirl on the other hand has probably only participated in traditional superheroics and the people she killed were most likely responsible for the deaths of civilians.
    The main problem would be getting her used to the whole softer approach of not killing people.
    And remember they have Canis, who has said that he has burned cities and killed people and also is still loyal to Darkseid but is just weird in how he goes about it.
    Compare the two of them and which do you think is more of a monster.
    Though Canis could be considered progressive in that he sees anyone who could rise in strength as being his equal, or the case of OL his superior. Unlike Overgirl who probably has a difficult time grasping that people from diffrent races can become her equals, or even superiors, in power.
    And let us not forget Kalmin and that blue guy that appeared in the GL animated series.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  13. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker, Rookie Proofreader

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    Huh, I was right, it's Himmler's Nazi Magic castle. I bet Sergeant Rock and his team were involved in the operation to sack it. Or maybe the Haunted Tank. That's somehow appropriate.

    German practicality at its finest.

    Ah, the Earth 10 equivalent of Mount Justice, scaled up to military training camp proportions.

    Ha! I suppose with Kryptonian tech, magic seemed passé.

    Given she knows it as an insult, that's like NeXtwave's Captain, who once used the name 'Captain ××××' (where ×××× is the worst four-letter word you can think of.) Captain America washed his mouth out with soap when they met. :D

    If anyone's wondering, back in 'Triumph of the Will', it was revealed that Germany's previous national spirit embodiment, Lucky Hans, was sacrificed in a black ritual to empower Captain Nazi as his replacement.

    Don't say that! I'm sure you can learn a lot about things your world has quietly swept under the rug.:D

    Eh, I suppose the small spots of familiar things stand out all the more amongst the different, and makes it harder to forget the contrast.

    Heh, after all, her world never had the linguistic and idealistic drift we've had.

    Honestly surprised she didn't find that while looking through Earth 16's historical records.

    Of course, she probably doesn't know what the Watchtower actually is, but can guess it to be a superhero base through context...

    Well, I'm sure OL wasn't quizzing each on their personal history while he was kicking ass and taking names...

    Ironically, that's likely what the Kreigers thought of them as... Cannon fodder to distract the heroes.

    Another thing she likely wouldn't recognise, but understand from context... Is 'liquid paper' actually that old? Though the brand name might not be one she'd heard of...

    Aw, trying to keep Helmut's privacy? How nice.

    Certainly, Kreiger thought it was, and that's all he cared about.

    Ah, yes, the age old question: "Your place or mine?":p

    She's a smart one. Not surprised at all, either.

    I'm sure Jade would have something to say about that. Though given her increased empathy, it would probably be "Okay, then."

    Not anywhere formally recognised, certainly.

    She wants to make herself useful? Why am I getting the feeling... [Gilligan cut]

    ...Oh, good grief.

    Oh, god. Better talk fast, OL, or that matter/antimatter scenario is about to go hot!

    Oh, this promises to be all kinds of interesting... Especially in the 'Hilarity ensues' and 'shouting match' senses. And she makes, what, the fourth or fifth 'older than they look' member of the Team?
     
  14. Darko

    Darko I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    This is going to be so fucking funnyx3

    Unfortunate that we didn't see Raquel and Angelika meet before this, but like the chemistry between De Niro and Pacino sometimes having the two of them apart is best.

    Hey did Sg. Rock find Prince Jon during WWII when the nazis were performing magic and probably wanted to get the indestructible viking on their side?

    If you're doing one of those alternated lantern chapters tomorrow, can we see one about Sybarite or common sense Paul?

    How is Anti green powering his ring now?
    Is he still taking energy from green lanterns or something else, like say using magic?
    How is Baul charging his ring?
    Still feeding on hope around him, or did John Constantine-14 build some magic device that can tap into the plane of hope and function like a lantern?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  15. Slayer Anderson

    Slayer Anderson Orthodox Heretic

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    Hmm... lack of experience with magic may correlate with a lack of respect for it, though.

    It's possible that it might open her up more, though equally as possible that magic has a very niche appeal and is otherwise considered baseless superstition as an explanation for other forms of powers. Much like Wally did, actually. Which is probably not a comparison he would enjoy if it's valid.

    Worst case, she might take the existence of such beings/powers as justification for the Nazi ideology rather than rationale against it. Given that her views seem to directly align with 'what is best for the state/people of Germany' they could seem like a threat rather than incentive to moderate stances on belief systems.
     
  16. rkyeun

    rkyeun Cabbitus Maximus

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    You could take her to Hell, and she could talk to Hitler himself.
    And you could leave her there with him.
    Hmm, nah, probably best if we don't give Hell access to Kryptonian flesh.
     
  17. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Not too sore, are you?

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    Oh yeah, this is going to be fun.

    I could honestly see her breaking point being Canis telling her about Apokalyps and then going "Your people did well so far too!"

    Damning praise and all that.
     
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  18. Jormuungaand

    Jormuungaand Out of work World Serpent

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    And now I’m imagining a Chihuahua and a Great Dane.
     
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  19. Galler

    Galler Getting sticky.

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    Fixed that for you... and sorry Maxx.
     
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  20. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    Convenient as it would be to solve all problems within twenty three minutes, sometimes that just isn't possible.
    Thank you, corrected.
    No. Since he's actually at the castle 'here' is correct.
    It's a title, so a capital letter is warranted.
    I haven't really decided. It could be anything from 'they remained isolated' to 'teenaged Overman killed teenaged Diana'.
    "I suppose there is something to be said for replacing negro-apemen with literal apes. Or did you turn your negros into apes?"
    I think they did meet, but it wasn't a deliberate action on the sergeant's part.
    Maybe.
    No.
    Still getting it from Green Lanterns, though in the longer term he'd like to get a Qwardian-made personal lantern.
    Just hope. John could probably build something like that eventually, but it would involve a lot of time and risk and they're a bit busy.
    I did have a plan -not sure if I'll actually write it- for the Renegade to find Hitler in Hell, only to find that the torments he'd undergone had reduced his mind to the point that he genuinely had no idea why he was there.
    Not really. He'd consider the camps inefficient at building and exterminating and only marginally effective at making suffering.
     
  21. Darko

    Darko I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Is the renegade ever going to meet the First of the Fallen in your story?
    Is the renegade going to lose the Sword of the Fallen in your story?
    Is the First of the Fallen stronger than Darkseid?
     
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  22. moralrelativity

    moralrelativity Know what you're doing yet?

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    their -> there (I think)

    It's highly unlikely that Angelika understands 'tippexed' but she might get the meaning based on context.

    Oh! This is going to be fun!!
     
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  23. nobodez

    nobodez Bringer of Context

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    I believe that should be a 'there' rather than a 'their.
     
  24. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Not too sore, are you?

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    And so it begins. This is going to be good.

    In other news, is Overgirl going to eventually go back, or will circumstances lead to her being stuck on Earth 16? I would love to see an interview segment with Overgirl. How many sentences would see get out before everyone boos her to go back to Nazi-land?
     
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  25. Aeess

    Aeess Not too sore, are you?

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    So far the plan of the SI to fill the team with other adults who look like teenagers is going well.
     
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  26. RagnarokAscendant

    RagnarokAscendant Came Here for WTR

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    Really? Really?
    Fuck, I knew Paul didn't think along normal human logic patterns, but this is ridiculous. Bad enough he was softballing everything and accommodating her...'worldview', but now he's letting her on the team?
    This is a horrible idea that will only lead to people questioning Paul's judgement in-universe.
     
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  27. Pinklestia

    Pinklestia Versed in the lewd.

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    Is been decades, why there would be any need for camps since they already killed them all?

    The camps only existed to disguise the genocides since back then everyone had concentration camps, even the USA.

    Instead of "We killed them for being inferior sub humans" it was "They died during an escape attempt, due to disease or they fought a guard," and so on. Of course putting the most fanatics of the ideology working on the camps was a mistake.

    Hence why the Soviet Union Camps made sure it was all by the book, that if something bad happened to someone it was because they broke the rules. And then they made the rules almost impossible to follow.
     
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  28. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    The ring could just translate it.
    No. As he said, she's going to be working with them for a little while. She isn't joining up just yet.
     
  29. Darko

    Darko I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    The League and the Team let Canis join them.
    He worked for a person whose empire makes nazi Germany and the shit they did look saintly by comparison.
    Canis has burned cities and killed innocent people and he probably still doesn't see anything wrong with that and still admires the person who sent the god of assassin's to kill him.

    Overgirl on the other hand has been involved in traditional superheroic activities and the people she killed were most likely responsible for civilian deaths.
    She is also having doubts about her way of life and may be able to change, Canis still reveres Darkseid.

    OL has recruited Kalmin, who may be responsible for multiple genocides and other crimes against sapient life and when he trained those lanterns when he went back to Maltus he saw that one of them invaded peaceful civilizations because he was disgusted by their way of life.

    He also works with demons and is known for his efforts to try to rehabilitate people.
    People may react negatively to Angelika because they simply hate nazis, even though she hasn't commited any of the atrocities they did and is having doubts.
    The most positive emotion they, even Raquel to an extent, could have for her would be pity seeing as she has never been shown another way to live.

    Not relative to the above but Zoat what would a renegade version of the SI be like in the avenger and MCU universe?
    Would he try to say that he is Thane and deal with Thanos like Renegade Paul is dealing with Darkseid?
    And will the paragon gain any other superpowers, aside from the empathy and emotional control he has with enlightement, any time in your story?
     
  30. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I was expecting it honestly. I figured either she was sticking around or OL was going to get pulled onto her earth.

    I rather expected her to stick around and learn the magic of friendship or what have you. Of course Zoat could always surprise us with her doubling down, killing a a bunch of people, and then being put down like a rabid creature.
     
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