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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    To beat us into submission for the ponies.
     
  2. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    The sad thing here is that with Nazi earth being both more advanced and more competently run the best Paul can hope for is convincing Overgirl that the various minority groups aren't evil caricatures.
     
  3. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Well, going by which groups they wanted completely or mostly gone (Blacks, Jews, Gypsies, and most Slavs), how many people they thought they could Germanize after conquering Eastern Europe, and which groups they were okay with as long as they stayed in their own countries . . . Uh . . . I'd guess that Earth 10 probably has a population somewhere in the ballpark of 5.6 Billion.

    For reference, the current population is estimated to be around 7.8 Billion.

    Most of the difference would be from those who simply wouldn't be born vs those directly killed. With the world population getting bumped up a little just from the natalist policies of the Nazis.

    Or you go maximum comic book Nazis and they literally took over the entire world and genocided anyone who wasn't white, too. In which case the world population probably would be closer to 2 or 3 Billion. (Assuming natalist policies worked fan-fucking-tastically.)

    But the latter scenario doesn't seem to be the case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  4. RagnarokAscendant

    RagnarokAscendant Exists

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    Fictional atrocities are easier to forget, easier to debate about, etc. They're...safely abstract. Horrendous, yes, but less gut-punchy. There's some stuff I could also bring up but it would break the recent politics rule.

    Nazis? Nazis are relevant in a way that fictional atrocities aren't.

    I'm just trying to picture what would happen if Zoat was posting this arc on SV, and it's...not pretty. Like, would probably result in a clusterfuck of pissed-off posters that makes Maxx's reactions look temperate not pretty.

    Still don't see why Zoat went for Nazi Girl from a narrative perspective, though. There's a lot of stuff he could've done instead if he wanted to tread the ground of a redemption story, without tap-dancing on the buttons of his readership. If the point of this ends up being that you can't fix certain mindsets, then I'm going to be really happy when Overgirl gets the crap kicked out of her.
     
  5. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    You're missing the emphasis the National Socialists put on big families.
    No, that's the whole point. The Spider Queen is from a species that routinely exterminates planetary populations by eating them and people talked about her being a waifu. Then some blonde woman shows up and everyone loses their minds.
     
  6. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Aside from the Spider Queen there is also Canis.
    A total monster responsible for the deaths of millions who everyone liked when he thought someone cloned Hitler just to get a sex toy, kissed Kaldur and may want to start some kind of relationship with Kon and possibly M'gann, either romantic or purely sexual, when he saw Kon destroy Oceanus body.
     
  7. John At Dawn

    John At Dawn Seeker of Answers

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    Mr Zoat Did you miss the part where I said it wouldn't help? It's the equivalent of flicking the forehead.
     
  8. Coda

    Coda Versed in the lewd.

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    That's a valid point. If the Nazis controlled the Western world, then Africa wouldn't have received the same level of humanitarian aid as it did on our Earth. That would slow the population growth.

    Though... one thing I don't know -- what year is it at the current point in the timeline on Earth 10?
     
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  9. RagnarokAscendant

    RagnarokAscendant Exists

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    Okay, but did the Spider Queen have a sentence or two in every one of her appearances that repeated that little piece of information somehow? Because that's what you'd need narratively to achieve the same amount of emotional weight and cultural significance as 'Nazi'. With Overgirl, any time she says...just about anything, she reminds everyone that she's a Nazi with all that implies. With the Spider Queen, the atrocities aren't implicitly recognized because nobody really has the same cultural or narrative perspective to link those atrocities to her personal viewpoint or actions.

    Also Paul hasn't accidentally had sex with Overgirl.
     
  10. Lazurman

    Lazurman That Others May Fap

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    Yet. Give it time.

    :V
     
  11. PDV

    PDV Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

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    They were both, and neither, as they claimed. There's an excellent analysis of it I've read (by a Swede), which places Fascism opposite Liberalism as a high-collectivism, low-abundance philosophy, as contrasted with high-collectivism high-abundance communism and low-collectivism low-abundance traditionalism. (Warning: discusses modern politics in parts.) This explanation also spits out reasons for why Communist governments look the same as Fascist ones despite significant underlying differences (make a high-abundance philosophy deal with low abundance in practice and it collapses toward the low-abundance neighbor) and a number of other theoretical puzzles.
     
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  12. Simonbob

    Simonbob Really? You don't say.

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    Ok.

    I see what you mean.

    Much of that I've seen, not said in the ways you said it.


    So, agreed. Ish, at least.
     
  13. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I distinctly remember supporting bringing out the Space Raid upon the spiders.

    I've been very consistent with my burn them all attitudes thank you.
     
  14. Jiro

    Jiro Getting sticky.

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    If I lived in a world where various supernatural critters were real, I'd probably learn what they are even if I wouldn't have any interest in them in the real world.
     
  15. DAT_NOOB

    DAT_NOOB Accused of writing in a far away land

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    I take offence to that I'm not a bloody colonial traitor!

    Also, gee who'd have thought some people think national SOCIALISTS might be socialists whether it's accurate or not?

    And that is why for all our bluster we still love you.
     
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  16. Jormuungaand

    Jormuungaand Out of work World Serpent

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    *Looks at Maxx Crowley ‘s profile pic*
    Puppy love? :D
     
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  17. Lord Ernest

    Lord Ernest At the End...

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    Gotta say, I love when there's a lot of debate in the thread, but at the same time... at this point there's not even a horse, the bloodstained place where its corpse was is getting beaten so hard and deep that it looks like we're looking for petroleum.

    On the other hand, now I'm really looking forward to the visit to pony-land. Not sure if there's any connection.
     
  18. Gantradies

    Gantradies Not too sore, are you?

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    ....the thing i always thought was stupid/outright moronic about the Klingon Warrior-caste's "Honour" system, is that otherwise Impeccably Honorable individuals are cast into Gre'thor for being the VICTIMS of treachery-
    like...whats the point of even trying, if you could be doomed to an afterlife/eternity of shame because someone knifed you in the back on the way to the battlefield >.<
     
  19. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Everyone loves Les Potats.
     
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  20. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    To have buddies willing to undergo a suitably awesome quest in your name to earn you glory enough for Stovokor posthumously.

    Or to have a loved one suitably Dragonborn-esque to enter Grethor and rescue you.
     
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  21. Itypeslow

    Itypeslow Corpses for the Corpse God!

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    I prefer Protector of the Small, myself
     
  22. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    Now there is an idea for an absurd omake.
     
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  23. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Hmmm. Zoat is probably right. Even accounting for their natalist policies, that first estimate is probably a little low. I still think around 3 Billion is probably accurate for the scenario of them making the entire planet as white as possible.

    But since they still have allies among certain groups/nations in at least this fic's version of Earth 10 . . .

    The biggest dip in population would probably be them purging black people from Africa. Because I don't think they'd they'd merely deny aid to African peoples. When these Nazis are conquering Britain and launching Trans-Atlantic invasions that end with the successful conquest of the United States?

    I definitely think they'd basically take Sub-Saharan Africa away from the defeated French and British. Get to work on their idea of a Mittelafrika.

    [​IMG]

    Just assume they also grab Liberia and the rest of South Africa. Especially South Africa. That has good Germanic stock in the form of the Boers that they can work on integrating. (They planned to buy Mozambique and Angola from Portugal, just FYI.)

    Oh, and more than likely let Italy have Djibouti so it can be added to Italian East Africa.

    The Nazis considered black people to be on the same level as Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies. So you can imagine just how badly Africa would be depopulated.

    Interestingly enough, despite this, they weren't really sent to the camps because there were so few blacks in Germany that they didn't really consider them enough of a threat to do much more than sterilize some of them. Though they did still face quite a bit of racial discrimination.

    I'm sure this would change after a total victory, and that they would have ended up in the camps as well in due time.

    ANYWAYS . . . While that would ordinarily result in a smaller population for Earth 10, the Nazis really, really wanted German women to pop out a lot of babies. To the extent that the created a special medal to honor German women with lots of babies. A medal that came with a boatload of special privileges.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honour_of_the_German_Mother

    If you don't feel like reading . . . They were pushing for every German family to have 4 to 8 kids.

    So yeah. Earth 10 is probably above 8 Billion now that I've thought about it more. With between 2 and 3 Billion of that being white, and with black people being considered endangered.
     
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  24. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

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    That’s what Mars is for. They’re also anti-science and especially against helping the weak. That means they likely don’t have any of the medical revolutions developed post-WW2 (such as the many vaccines developed in the 60s), so people die more often. 8 children then was sort of the equivalent of 4 today apparently, from what I understand, at least as far as how many make it to adulthood. While Kal-El’s pod having a database would help with material science, computing, Engineering, etc... the one thing it couldn’t give Germans would be medical treatments that worked on humans. This would maybe be better as far as population control goes.
     
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  25. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

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    Better tech does not just mean knowing more, it also means being better and faster at finding out new things. And the fortress contains medical analysis tools.

    It would have been a huge boost to Nazi medicine.
     
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  26. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

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    Yes and no. For analysis, sure, for genetics, sure. For disease - which could be interpreted as weakness? No way would there be funding. They could have found out about them, but they wouldn’t have funded certain things
     
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  27. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Despite the goofy ideas they had on race, I wouldn't really describe the Nazis as anti-science. Even the most popular thing people try to point to when making that claim, the "Jewish Physics" thing, was something that wasn't actually supported by the Nazi government.

    It was basically just two dudes, Lenard and Stark, who tried to push the idea of Jewish Physics. With the two of them quickly losing any influence they had when they pissed off Himmler by harassing Werner Heisenberg. With Himmler promising that the SS would finance a state of the art physics institute, with Heisenberg in charge of it, after they won the war.

    Lenard began to play less and less of a role, and soon Stark ran into even more difficulty, as other scientists and industrialists known for being exceptionally "Aryan" came to the defense of Relativity and quantum mechanics. As historian Mark Walker puts it, "despite his best efforts, in the end his science was not accepted, supported, or used by the Third Reich. Stark spent a great deal of his time during the Third Reich fighting with bureaucrats within the National Socialist state. Most of the National Socialist leadership either never supported Lenard and Stark, or abandoned them in the course of the Third Reich."

    The Nazis still wanted scientists. They just didn't want Jewish scientists.

    Nor were they anti-vaccinations. They put a fair amount of effort into furthering vaccine development. Mostly by testing them on people they tossed into the camps. Which, uh, even disregarding the Kryptonian tech, might mean their medicine is further along. The Nazis were all too happy to experiment on those they considered sub-human. I'd assume a medical industry that can ignore animal testing altogether and just test on humans whenever the fuck it feels like it would be further along, anyways.

    So. Uh. Yeah. Earth 10. The "utopia" built on the suffering of those they considered undesirable.
     
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  28. Threadmarks: Jungle Gym (part 7)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    18th March
    14:21 GMT -3


    "Hm."

    Beryl carefully studies the damage to the cab of one of the log-hauling lorries, and I take a moment to scan the metal and transmit a representation of the stress pattern into her computer. I'm letting her acquire evidence and eavesdrop while her pattern recognition abilities really get to work trying to work out what people aren't sharing.

    And… I'll admit, I am treating this like a training mission. For the rest of my squad. I'm not using empathic vision on the workers or site overseer or even the manager who is heading towards me at a scurry-walk.

    The forest here is in the early stage of being cleared. There's a dirt road to a.. slightly better maintained dirt road, and a small cleared area for the lorries to turn around in. Outwards from that there are a great many tree stumps, cut through just above ground height. Clearing those out will come later, hopefully after they've made some sort of arrangement to keep the soil from being washed-.

    No, no, that's not going to happen, is it?

    Angelika is on overwatch duty. Beatriz and Raquel headed off to the nearest town to see if they could pick up any information, because when Beatriz wants something from a person she can be beguiling in a way she.. never bothered to be with me. And Raquel wants to learn something about what life is actually like in this part of the world, a goal I fully support. Garth is attempting an aura reading from the apparent entry point, but… If it actually was a magic creature he'd have found something almost immediately.

    "Orange Lantern!"

    I smile at the manager, descending through the air to land just in front of him. Cotton trousers rather than jeans, and.. a little overweight. His employee file says that he started with the company doing clearance work himself, but whatever muscle he built up swinging a chainsaw has long since been subsumed by middle age.

    I smile pleasantly and take the offered hand. "Mister Souza."

    "I didn't think that the Justice League was actually going to send anyone."

    "It's a slow-peril day. And I do like getting on top of these things before anyone dies."

    "Thank you."

    Small wafts of fear, but it's all… Failure to deliver penalties and danger to his crew. I'm not seeing any sign that he's worried about us. Which means that if there's any kind of put-up job going on that he almost certainly isn't part of it. Which is nice.

    "So, if you could please summarise events for me?"

    I've repeatedly read the actual briefing document, but Batman expects us to check things for ourselves. And Mr Souza certainly hasn't read the briefing documents and almost certainly also didn't read the briefing document's grandfather, which would have been prepared by someone in Corporate or Public Relations. And because of that, he probably isn't certain what the 'official line' is. The route of enquiry I'm supposed to be encouraged to follow.

    Another Discworld quote… No, I can't remember it well enough to quote it. Samuel Vimes said… Something about police work. That you poked around and asked sensible questions but in your heart of hearts you just hoped that the guilty party's nerve would break and they'd give themselves away. No one with any sense would attack a site with either myself or Overgirl present. Even just having an increased security presence might well intimidate a potential attacker; not necessarily because they couldn't outfight it, but because they wouldn't be able to do so without identifying themselves. And superheroes they couldn't identify would mean that they'd have to at least consider that they might lose the fight.

    "It was… Two days ago. We start work at dawn, so the damage wasn't immediately obvious, you know? Then Pablo -he's the truck supervisor- told me that some of the trucks had been vandalised." He shrugs. "That could be a lot of things. We're too far away from anywhere for it to be drunks, but I've had environmental protestors on sites before. But they don't just rip engines apart. So I thought maybe it exploded or something? But there wasn't any burning, and then the other workers started reporting the rest of the damage."

    I nod.

    "Do you have any security on site?"

    "There's a checkpoint down the road, but that's mostly for making sure that people are at work when they're supposed to be." He shrugs, shaking his head. "That's about it. No one lives around here."

    "No tribes?"

    He shakes his head. "No, if we were anywhere near a tribal reserve or whatever, we'd have some armed guards. We haven't had any kind of complaints or anything like that."

    And while I'm not a perfect lie detector… I'd say that he's probably telling the truth. Still…

    "No complaints?"

    He face-shrugs. "Sure, some, there's always some, but nothing special. This just came out of nowhere."

    "Were any people injured?"

    "One guy cut his hand on broken metal. Oh, directly? No. We pretty much shut down during the night. It's too dangerous when we can't see what we're doing, and it's a pain setting up floodlights somewhere like this."

    Bad roads. They have to move people and equipment in and the wood out without turning them into a quagmire. March is a reasonable temperature… Still too hot for me, but not bad for Brazil. But it's also pretty darn wet. Add in generators, lights, fuel for the generators… Yeah. They could only do it if they at the very least dumped stone chips to give the road some sort of surface, and the added cost would be significant.

    Which… Ah. Getting replacement people would be easy, up to a point. If everyone died then the fear would keep replacements away, but one or two deaths? Not really an issue. Getting replacement machinery is difficult. They can't have broken machines blocking the site, which means they need to get another truck up here to drag it away-. Unless they're planning on asking me to do it. So is whoever did this planning on delaying work? It won't stop, but if they need to slow it down until something else happens…

    Nothing much happening in Brazil's political calendar. Certainly nothing of immediate relevance. At least, that I can see as an outsider. If we get stumped here I can head over there and find an insider to pump for information. Nothing special economically. So, geography? Someone or something-?

    "Had anything changed recently? Were you moving onto a new area?"

    "We cut trees where there are trees. Sure, we were moving up, but we're always moving up. We didn't pass any.. obvious barrier or marker. I mean, not that I noticed."

    Again, no obvious sign of dishonesty.

    "Alright, thank you. My team and I will keep looking around, and I'll let you know when we have something."

    "Do you know..? How long this is going to take?"

    "Not really. If it's just a matter of tracking down one malcontent then I doubt that we'll still be here this evening. If something more complicated is going on then it'll take longer."

    "Like..?"

    "If the damage was caused by manifested forest spirits then it could take years and radically change the Brazilian economy."

    "But you can deal with it, right?"

    "Yes, but… We're here to prevent harm to people, not to support any one economic policy. If all logging had to stop tomorrow, then as long as you're given time to evacuate then our job is done."

    "Oh."

    I nod and smile again.

    "Excuse me."
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  29. thebishop8

    thebishop8 Umm, ackchyually...

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    Should that be "those will come out later"?

    Should that be "not necessarily that they couldn't outfight it"?
     
  30. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Goddamn tree spirits! They took our jobs!

    Dey turk er jurbs!

    Durkur duur!
     
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