With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Old Knife · Apr 25, 2022

So that's how he gets his one ups.

Senevri · Apr 25, 2022

People keep forgetting, this is Native Grayven's body, thus his DNA.

NightmareWarden · Apr 25, 2022

Achievement Unlocked! Category: Video Games. Name: Binding of Isaac item stash.

Chojin Patriarch · Apr 25, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
28th October 2012
20:07 GMT

"…risk a boom tube?"

I nod to myself as Artemis speaks through my ring. Neither radio waves nor New God type communicators get through, but power rings work just fine.

Curiouser and curiouser, as they go down the rabbit hole. How strange that whatever conceptual defences this has doesn't prevent the Maltusian tech working, when it read as invisible to their sensors...

"No, with the Absolute Dominion in orbit I can use a hush tube. You sure it didn't react to your magic?"

"Not that I can see or feel."

As if it were infused with the very concept of Concealment.

Right. Mother Box.

Ping.

"Only one way to find out for sure."

A hole in the universe opens just below me, and I drop down into… Darkness, illuminated only by Sinestro's glow. "How's he treating you?"

She grimaces, pulls it off her right middle finger and tosses it to me. I pull it onto my right ring finger.

Begrudging functionality, I suppose. Out of courtesy for Grayven, or has she learnt some measure of talent with Fear?

"That bad?"

"Apparently I'm 'barely adequate, despite my upbringing'."

Heh. I suppose that's damning with faint praise, coming from him.

"Would you rather be an excellent fit for a dictator who believed that order could only be maintained through fear?" I peer around, the darkness-. Wait.

Ping.

"I was wondering when you'd notice."

"Can you see better than me?"

"Only if I make an effort. Does that mean there's someone here?"

So... Is the whatever-this-is not as deserted as they initially thought, I wonder?

"No necessarily. And since we're not being inundated by parademons or aero-troopers, I tend to doubt it. Not sure how the system is powerful enough to mess with us like this." I frown, then shake my head. "Which is odd, because a system that can do that would be valuable and worth defending, particularly if it wasn't stripped for parts. But it isn't being defended."

Artemis readies an arrow. "Don't speak too soon." Death Awaits.

Or it's been declared obsolete. Or whoever created it was killed without telling anyone it existed.

"Obvious question, through. There's no outward sign that anything's here-."

"Where did other-you hear about it. If you still don't think he built it himself."

And then erase the memory as best he could? That's going to extremes to hide something.

"A sufficiently traumatic head injury might just erase the memory, but that doesn't… Sound right." I walk over to the closest wall and place my left palm against it. Bow To My Will!

The stygian blackness pulls back a little, but scans still aren't telling me much. Mother Box?

So it doesn't recognise his authority. Perhaps he'll have to exert himself?

Ping.

Great. Looks like we're in a store room of some sort. The few remaining crates are neatly stacked in the corner, no obvious detritus left around the place. No particular feeling from anything.

"Not much to see anyway." Indeed, looks like they arrived in the custodial closet.

Oh.

"One possibility does come to mind, given the state of the outside."

And it's clearly bad, if you're reacting like this. Are you sure you want to poke this?

"Anti-Life research. Do we need to leave?"

"No. Incidental tertiary exposure shouldn't do much to us, though if we confirm it we'll need to leave and destroy the place from orbit."

With prejudice. The last thing you want is that kind of trouble getting out.

My frown deepens as I shake my head, lifting my hand off the wall and armouring myself. No lock on the door, just a requirement for a minimal level of spiritual power. Easy enough to manage

"So if it's not that..?"

No locks? Presumably this was a place for one or two trusted workers, then.

The door opens, the darkness retreating once more to… Reveal a laboratory? A small one. The machinery is a garish combination of purple, yellow and green and… I can't immediately call to mind a New God with that colour scheme. Evil colours, though, so that fits. A red and orange helmet that I'd be insane to try on sits on a small plinth, while a larger circular platform stands empty on one side. Teleporter? Fabricator? Viewing platform? Miniature safe room?

Ah, Kirby art at it's finest and most abstract. Something nearly every adaption fails to do justice.

Naturally, there's no control panel.

Ping.

"I think I know what this was used for..."

Artemis comes in behind me, eyes darting around. "Is it doing that now?"

Ping.

"No, thank the Source."

I find myself shaking my head again. "I don't know about that. I mean, yes, that technique could work, but why would anyone put a machine designed to resurrect New Gods away from Apokolips?"

Artemis glances at me. "You said we couldn't be resurrected."

Well, that's a hell of a thing to find buried under a slain world...

"I definitely can't, you probably can't, because our souls will merge with the Source upon our deaths. That doesn't mean that we can't be cloned, just that… We wouldn't get much out of it." I move a little closer to the platform, trying to draw upon Other Grayven's earliest memories. "Darkseid had a team… Working on the problem. They never really solved it. They got to the point where the duplicates weren't totally mindless and could be taught, but they lacked the spiritual force of the originals." I smile. "That's one of the reasons how I know that I'm me and not a duplicate, despite merging with Other Grayven."

And leaves a worrying opening for him to force his way back into dominance of your shared form. If Conquest can overpower Acquisition...

"So they were making copies here?"

"Something like that. You couldn't make duplicates to use as infiltrators because they wouldn't have the knowledge or spiritual presence. You couldn't use the system to make powerful New Gods immortal for the same reason. Baron Bedlam's multiple plastic bodies were as far as the research got, as far as I know."

Baron Bedlam, though information is sparse on that wiki (The alternatives are Outsider foes of Prince Brion Markov.) But I could see him coming out of something like this.

I walk over to… Because of course there's no control panel. I walk over to a group of levers and haphazardly placed unmarked buttons, hoping that Mother Box will be able to do something with it.

Ping.

"To borrow a phrase: 'It's all Greek to me.'"

Well, keep trying.

"How does he work?"

Probably something akin to a hive-mind - every body having the same mind, without dissent.

"As I understand it, his consciousness isn't attached to any one body. He'd still die if all of his bodies were destroyed, but losing the odd one or two isn't more than an inconvenience."

"Any idea why Other Grayven wanted it? Or why it was abandoned?"

Backup bodies? Or maybe... The ability to be in more than one place at a time might be useful for a conqueror. Direct control on multiple battlefields and war-zones simultaneously.

"No. None." I take a closer look at the machine to see if anything springs to mind. "As far as I recall, he didn't know what was here. Only that it was something New God."

"You don't think he got made here?"

...One problem with that theory. And she's living in challenger Mountain.

"No, the memories I got from him distinctly include his childhood."

"But that wouldn't mean he wasn't, right? They could have copied a child and then just let him grow up normally."

...Huh. I suppose nothing says Grayven's mother actually bore him in the old-fashioned way.

"True, but there's no obvious benefit. I mean, he could have been an experiment to see what would happen, and… Darkseid wouldn't just throw him away if that's what happened because he might learn something out of it. But we're Darkseid's sons. Every memory I have of Apokolips includes us being referred to like that, and if…"

No.

A moment of self-doubt, Renegade?

Mother Box, Sinestro, scan for my genetic material.

Lantern Grayven, you already know.

...Oh, this is heading into a big old pile of 'Nope'.

"Oh."

"What?"

"I have no memory of being here before, but there's genetic material from-." Why were there crates in the store room when everything else-? "From me here."

'Me' as in the Earth-Prime human you started as, or 'me' as in the local Grayven's body you're inhabiting?

A construct claw grabs a crate and yanks it over to us before cutting it open.

A dozen foetuses with copies of my own face blankly stare up at me from their preservative jars.

And there's the 'Nope'! Noping all the way out of there would be a good idea now!

Well.

Well... That happened. At what point did we stumble into the horror movie edition of 'Young Justice'? At any rate, that's enough to send just about anyone else heading for the hills.

...And yet, I get the feeling they've seen worse in Sheeda times. Gods only know what else they're going to stumble across in here. Let's just hope this place isn't guarded by anything... Or anyone.

Vaermina · Apr 25, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"I have no memory of being here before, but there's genetic material from-." Why were there crates in the store room when everything else-? "From me here."

A construct claw grabs a crate and yanks it over to us before cutting it open.

A dozen foetuses with copies of my own face blankly stare up at me from their preservative jars.

Well, I guess that explains why Artemis was able to do what she did.

He wasn't the real Grayven either.

It also explains why Darkseid was willing to play the game he did with Renegade, he wanted to see if Fatherbox soul modification of humans was another path to making copies of New Gods.

Mr Zoat · Apr 25, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
Just to confirm, him as in as a New God, or him as in his original body?

Baby Grayven faces.

Darko said:
"Not necessarily"

Thank you, corrected.

So.ethong being dumb and insane to do hasn't stopped you before.

Not that I'm judging you or anything, but I've never written Grayven as wearing any kind of thong.

lancelot · Apr 25, 2022

Have to admit the one thing that ruins the Grayven side story is how the idiot now believes his own lie.

Chaoswind · Apr 25, 2022

lancelot said:
Have to admit the one thing that ruins the Grayven side story is how the idiot now believes his own lie.

The mask became the face and then he literally merged with OG Grayven, for all intents anf purposes Renegade is Grayven.

Vaermina · Apr 25, 2022

lancelot said:
Have to admit the one thing that ruins the Grayven side story is how the idiot now believes his own lie.

He believes the lie because he mindbroke himself via Fatherbox.

Darko · Apr 25, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Ah, Kirby art at it's finest and most abstract. Something nearly every adaption fails to do justice

To be fair, the artwork could be annoying and may cause a stroke to some people.

What looks good on paper may not look so good animated or in live action.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...One problem with that theory. And she's living in challenger Mountain

If you're talking about Mortalla, then that's not true.

When renegade fought Actually Grayven, Actually Grayven told him that Mortalla wasn't his mother but just one of Darkseid's concubines.

Actually Grayven's mom is apparently dead.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well. Well... That happened. At what point did we stumble into the horror movie edition of 'Young Justice

Probably around the time we met Cranius.

lancelot said:
Have to admit the one thing that ruins the Grayven side story is how the idiot now believes his own lie.

There was a moment way way back in the past where he seemed to notice that he was doing that and tried to stop himself.

DrThoth · Apr 25, 2022

Darko said:
No, you're not.

Actually Grayven is the son of Darkseid, you're the sin of a British chemistry professor.

That seems a little harsh, not to mention scandalous, to both Mr Zoat and his father

DAT_NOOB · Apr 25, 2022

This is where IRL Zoat announces himself as Grayven Son of Darkseid IRL, isn't it?

Flightless Man · Apr 25, 2022

DAT_NOOB said:
This is where IRL Zoat announces himself as Grayven Son of Darkseid IRL, isn't it?

Would have been funny if one of the one shot pauls, was just paul who never inserted. At the grocery store or something, getting in a debate with the clerk and complaining about some of the things he fixed in the different universes.

Mr Zoat · Apr 25, 2022

Darko said:
Actually Grayven is the son of Darkseid, you're the son of a British chemistry professor.

Biology teacher, and he's retired now.

DAT_NOOB said:
This is where IRL Zoat announces himself as Grayven Son of Darkseid IRL, isn't it?

Not unless there's something Dad really needs to tell me.

Rafin · Apr 25, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"I definitely can't, you probably can't, because our souls will merge with the Source upon our deaths. That doesn't mean that we can't be cloned, just that… We wouldn't get much out of it." I move a little closer to the platform, trying to draw upon Other Grayven's earliest memories. "Darkseid had a team… Working on the problem. They never really solved it. They got to the point where the duplicates weren't totally mindless and could be taught, but they lacked the spiritual force of the originals." I smile. "That's one of the reasons how I know that I'm me and not a duplicate, despite merging with Other Grayven."

What? Then how in all hells did Fatherbox make Rene!Paul into such a good parallel to Grayven? Is he again so into his role that he forgot that? Because otherwise all you need to clone a dead New God should be a good soul recording by Desaad, a powerful yet soulless humanoid entity, a device to mold its flesh body and a Father Box.

BR549 · Apr 25, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
At any rate, that's enough to send just about anyone else heading for the hills.

"You know, there are some Decepticons who, upon finding themselves in a skin-covered room surrounded by aborted protoforms and mechanoids made of bark, would rub their hands together, marvel at the universe's infinite capacity for surprise and dive right in. I am not one of those Decepticons. I say we run away screaming." - Misfire, More than Meets the Eye #7

Ngamer11 · Apr 25, 2022

Rafin said:
What? Then how in all hells did Fatherbox make Rene!Paul into such a good parallel to Grayven? Is he again so into his role that he forgot that? Because otherwise all you need to clone a dead New God should be a good soul recording by Desaad, a powerful yet soulless humanoid entity, a device to mold its flesh body and a Father Box.

Perhaps the fact that Paul came from a universe that couldn't sustain souls meant that just giving him one via Fatherbox's influence turned him into an effective copy of Grayven that can't be duplicated due to the differing physical laws between the universes?

BR549 · Apr 25, 2022

Rafin said:
What? Then how in all hells did Fatherbox make Rene!Paul into such a good parallel to Grayven? Is he again so into his role that he forgot that? Because otherwise all you need to clone a dead New God should be a good soul recording by Desaad, a powerful yet soulless humanoid entity, a device to mold its flesh body and a Father Box.

To quote a line related to Scion 2nd Edition: He walked with the god until the god was forced to walk with him.

Dur'id the Druid · Apr 25, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
A dozen foetuses with copies of my own face blankly stare up at me from their preservative jars.

Welp, that's horror. Fridge horror in fact.

I'll show myself out.

Pinklestia · Apr 25, 2022

Dur'id the Druid said:
Welp, that's horror. Fridge horror in fact.

I'll show myself out.

So? Local Grayven was an experiment, that explains Darkseid mostly ignoring him.

My Little Pony has Dungeon and Dragons mosters because Hasbro owns Dungeons and Dragons.

Cranius.

The Horror was always here.

Valint · Apr 25, 2022

Chaoswind said:
The mask became the face and then he literally merged with OG Grayven, for all intents anf purposes Renegade is Grayven.

Wasn't one of the theories raised in-story that the original Paul was literally a Grayven who either deliberately or was forced to live a life as a mortal on Earth-Prime, to increase his understanding of life? (All very xianxia-like.)

I mean, at least in the Renegade's version, his backstory has surpassed both Donna Troy and Power Girl in terms of no one being sure what the truth is any more, including both the MC and the readers in the 'no one'.

boo600 · Apr 25, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Artemis glances at me. "You said we couldn't be resurrected."

"I definitely can't, you probably can't, because our souls will merge with the Source upon our deaths. That doesn't mean that we can't be cloned, just that… We wouldn't get much out of it." I move a little closer to the platform, trying to draw upon Other Grayven's earliest memories. "Darkseid had a team… Working on the problem. They never really solved it. They got to the point where the duplicates weren't totally mindless and could be taught, but they lacked the spiritual force of the originals." I smile. "That's one of the reasons how I know that I'm me and not a duplicate, despite merging with Other Grayven."

Huh.

On the one hand, this makes sense - New Gods draw power from the Source, etc.

On the other hand, I distinctly remember Grayven (Paul) reassuring Zatanna (back when he was turning his team into gods) that New Godhood would have no impact on where their souls ended up - basically, that she'd still go to Heaven. Be able to see her mom, that sort of thing. Not just merge with the Source.

Did René!Paul not know what he was talking about, or was he lying? Or, given that he's speaking of himself and Artemis, neither of whom is religious, is that merely what happens to atheistic New Gods?

It certainly seems suboptimal for this Paul and his friends - people should not die when they are killed, if they have the resources to do otherwise. Sure, biological immortality is nice, but look at Parapaul and his experiences with Qa-matter and the Heavenly Host. Surely working on a redirection method is worth considering?

Stsword · Apr 25, 2022

Rafin said:
What? Then how in all hells did Fatherbox make Rene!Paul into such a good parallel to Grayven? Is he again so into his role that he forgot that? Because otherwise all you need to clone a dead New God should be a good soul recording by Desaad, a powerful yet soulless humanoid entity, a device to mold its flesh body and a Father Box.

Soulless living bodies aren't that easy to come by, in Zoat cosmology they die quickly, empty shells missing that vital spark, the Pauls are an exception to that rule.

So presumably these clones have their own souls, which interferes, whereas Renegade was a tabula rasa spiritually.

Well unless the soulless vampire people of Atlantean myth are real.

Darko · Apr 25, 2022

boo600 said:
Huh.

On the one hand, this makes sense - New Gods draw power from the Source, etc.

On the other hand, I distinctly remember Grayven (Paul) reassuring Zatanna (back when he was turning his team into gods) that New Godhood would have no impact on where their souls ended up - basically, that she'd still go to Heaven. Be able to see her mom, that sort of thing. Not just merge with the Source.

Did René!Paul not know what he was talking about, or was he lying? Or, given that he's speaking of himself and Artemis, neither of whom is religious, is that merely what happens to atheistic New Gods?

It certainly seems suboptimal for this Paul and his friends - people should not die when they are killed, if they have the resources to do otherwise. Sure, biological immortality is nice, but look at Parapaul and his experiences with Qu-matter and the Heavenly Host. Surely working on a redirection method is worth considering?

He wouldn't technically be lying, but is just leaving out a lot of details.

Humans that end up in Heaven apparently may merge with God, who in this story may be the Source, or at least an avatar of it or uses its power, so they kinda can meet their parents to and non-New God family/friends.

Vaermina · Apr 25, 2022

Darko said:
He wouldn't technically be lying, but is just leaving out a lot of details.

Humans that end up in Heaven apparently may merge with God, who in this story may be the Source, or at least an avatar of it or uses its power, so they kinda can meet their parents to and non-New God family/friends.

Yes, but that was something a different Paul found out, not Grayven.

Doccer · Apr 26, 2022

Darko said:
Hmm, it's uncanny reading about this and watching the newest Owl House episode on the same day.

Which episode is that? I've been considering getting I to the series and I'd like to know what 1 to look for.

AmericanNumbers · Apr 26, 2022

I think People miss that it isn't just Renegade believing the "lie" but that it's been clearly established that Paul lacked a soul in the DC universe way and that Renegade did not get that corrected before he went down the Grayven path and wound up with DARKSEID having straight up access to the blank canvas that was his soul. Darkseid made him Grayven and if Darkseid wills it? It effectively IS.

Cuchulin · Apr 26, 2022

AmericanNumbers said:
I think People miss that it isn't just Renegade believing the "lie" but that it's been clearly established that Paul lacked a soul in the DC universe way and that Renegade did not get that corrected before he went down the Grayven path and wound up with DARKSEID having straight up access to the blank canvas that was his soul. Darkseid made him Grayven and if Darkseid wills it? It effectively IS.

Darksied IS and it is as Darkseid wills.

Xmaster3000 · Apr 26, 2022

Doccer said:
Which episode is that? I've been considering getting I to the series and I'd like to know what 1 to look for.

You're gonna wanna start from season one, but the episode Darko is talking about is in season two. The episode in question heavily implies that someone (not saying who 'cause it's a spoiler) is a clone, and is not the first clone of that individual by a long shot.

Mr Zoat · Apr 26, 2022

28th October 2012
21:32 GMT

"…because I would be fired."

Ploutos strums the fingers of his right hand against the side of his coffee cup, avoiding my eyes. For a moment I feel awkward about hassling an old man, before I remind myself that while he is old he's younger than quite a few of the Olympians I've already spoken to and been turned down by.

"Wouldn't that be economic suicide?"

"Only in the same sense that smoking is suicide. The fundamentals of an economy are not harmed by short term price fluctuations. Real economic damage kills slowly but surely. The office I hold and the privileges that come with it are the most a person can hold in Greece without being elected. And because I am not elected and because it is my job to tell people who want to spend money they don't have that they can't, I don't have the support of a political machine and I don't have the support of the cabinet."

"But you have the support of your peers-. You don't, because they want your job."

"It's not as if I'm ever going to retire, after all."

"You'd have to eventually, wouldn't you? I mean, they're going to notice eventually."

"There are people in this world who do not age as most do. It would be simple to 'discover' that I was descended from a demigod or some such thing, particularly with people growing accustomed to being guarded by the Heraklya."

"I was surprised by how many of them volunteered."

Given the effort it's taken to persuade other Amazons to go through the Dolmen Gate, the fact that most of Herakles' daughters were happy to decamp to the mainland came as a bit of a surprise. Particularly given the number of statues that had to be relocated in a hurry. Still, it's… Making the people of Greece feel a good deal safer, and been a major boon to the tourist industry.

And not just from lesbians.

It's also made it hard for the Orthodox Church to complain too much about the pagans, though that's probably going to change in the not-too-distant future. Having living proof of the power of the Olympians hanging around has emboldened the pagans, and… It's interesting to watch them trying to speak to the Amazons in Ancient Greek.

I imagine it's like saying 'ayve' to a Roman and then being confused as to why they tell you to go away.

"I was not."

"Oh?"

"During Themyscira's brief and fleeting contacts with the world outside of their island, it was usually the Heraklya who made the journey. Hippolyta knows that the government in Athens has no malice for her or her people, but that would not stop a single individual attacking them. The Heraklya are even more capable of taking care of themselves than their sister Amazons."

"And because despite everything they're still defined by their father."

"Which is not a bad thing as far as the rest of Greece is concerned."

"The Archbishop's speech rather suggested otherwise."

"It was a moderation on his former position, and an indication of the direction of travel. It is usually unwise for churchmen to spring things on their parishioners. They have long since acknowledged that we Olympians exist, and it actually helps their position that the Heraklya hold their father in such low regard."

"So..?"

"So I will wait between five years and a decade, until such things are normalised if not fully accepted, then I will make a quiet announcement concerning my own 'heritage'."

"But a hard 'no' on acting as God of Commerce?"

"You have a compromise in mind?"

"Hellenism isn't exactly a major world religion at the moment."

"That is true. And if I were to take the job, I doubt that it would be much different to the lectures I am periodically called upon to give to my fellow economists. Some time away from the office, but returning to Olympus rather than Davos."

"I'm sure that Hephaestaean would prefer it if you were actively trying to proselytise, sharing your wisdom with anyone who needed it. But taking a day or two a month to answer those who request your guidance shouldn't be any great burden."

"No." He nods. "No, I suppose that you are correct. And Hephaestaean does not want me to control a company for him?"

"Given the rate at which I've been picking up rejections today, I think he'll be glad that you're willing to do anything."

"Ah, yes. I see how that could happen. Despite his power, Zeus was never ambitious. He fought Cronus for his own survival and took power as his due, not because he sought it for its own sake."

"Jesus never sought power for its own sake, and the religion he inspired is the largest on the planet."

"True, but I have my suspicions about Paul and he founded the institution."

"Not going to tell me that you met him?"

"He would hardly have asked me for business advice. No, if you want to hear about the early church, I suggest speaking with Athena."

"It has been suggested to me that I might like to avoid unplanned encounters with gods."

A wry smile. "It may be wise. Will Hephaestaean expect me to offer him advice on how best to use the technology he is developing?"

"I imagine that he would appreciate it, but he's willing to take whatever you're willing to offer. I.. work in a field where many of my contemporaries maintain separate identities for their civilian lives and heroic lives. That sort of deceit is really quite common."

"A superhero of economics. I have never been referred to as that in such a literal way. Very well: I agree. You may tell Hephaestaean that I am willing to act as a part time God of Commerce, advising the rest of the pantheon and the most ardent of our worshippers."

"And in the future-?"

"In.. the future, I may be willing to revise my position. Depending on what else is happening. The difficulty is that I am not prepared to do half a job with the Greek economy, or half a job as a god."

"Is there anyone you can train up for either job?"

"No one I'd trust." He sighs. "I will speak with the Rector of the University of Athens about increasing the number of lectures I deliver. I should be able to sense anyone sufficiently capable, and I should be able to find time to mentor them. I have a suspicion that a man like you will not rest until this theological restructuring happens, whether the world is willing or not."

"And on that note, do you want a power ring?"

He frowns, his eyes dipping to my hands for a moment.

"Why would you offer me one of those?"

"It would explain the longevity without you needing to make overt reference to the Hellenic mythos, and allow you to move far faster than a normal man. The fact that I consult with you is already well known, so it wouldn't seem strange that I might give you one."

"I will have to think on it at some length."

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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