With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Prince Charon · Jan 6, 2020

nick012000 said:
Like I said, "anywhere but Germany".

Wasn't awake, so missed that. Sorry.

inglorius · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"Okay. Nice Orange Lantern costume."

"Thank you, I made it myself."

This is quality content that I signed for.

Mr Zoat said:
You must have been a very trusting girl

And this is what you get for willing ignorance.

Mr Zoat · Jan 6, 2020

Chojin Patriarch said:
Something of a teenage rebellion, 'rejecting your parent's ideals' thing in part, I suppose.
Corrections:
Let me know if you need to leave.
"I did not recognise that I liked...

Thank you, corrected.

Bigreader said:
Exactly. Does anyone but the super people know about her? Kara i mean.

Yes. A new member of Superman's family turning up was big news.

Prince Charon said:
Probably not that common in Germany, due to local laws, though.

Her costume isn't very Nazii. It's a grey bodystocking with gloves and cape and a chest insignia. No swastikas or other Nazi symbols.

Pinklestia · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
The barmaid turns to an inverted bottle behind the bar with a picture of a beehive on it. "Single or double?"

And now I want the lesbian bar to be one of H.I.V.E Academy legal business.

"An Academy of evil owns a lesbian bar? I... Don't know what to say to that."

"You would be surprised how many arguments with family about your sexual orientation tended to end in becoming a supervillain. Things are a tad better nowadays."

Siskulous · Jan 6, 2020

Yeah....I'm kinda done with this arc. Overgirl is a disgusting character I want nothing to do with. While I still think Maxx's approach to kill them all is wrong (Daryl Davis's approach is both more moral and more effective in the long run) if I encountered someone like Overgirl I would get the hell away from them as soon as I possibly could.

PDV · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
You must have been a very trusting girl.

Honestly? Not really. I have a trans friend who was born in Russia. She doesn't pass for cis, even a little bit; if you are paying any attention and are aware that meeting a trans person on the street is a real thing that happens, you will clock her instantly from across the street.
But in Russia, which is pretty damn bigoted against queer people of any variety, she only gets shit from the government and healthcare, because those are the only people who know the gender marker on her birth certificate says "male".

I think it's fair to say that Angelika's Germania is more bigoted than modern Russia. And she knew, at a gut level, that Gerri/Donner was a good person. And also knew at a gut level (incorrectly) that homosexuals were bad, subhuman people. Most likely the possibility that she was a lesbian wouldn't even have occurred to her unless she saw it happen repeatedly.

Coda · Jan 6, 2020

Ct613hulu said:
Why isn't OL bringing up how the standards that the Nazi regime is using to determine genetic fitness are hopelessly biased and that the Nazi system of eugenics is not in any way representative of real genetic science.

It wouldn't really be a good point. Their science continued to progress after the end of the war. The mistakes they made in the 30s and 40s are long behind them. It's entirely possible (especially with Kryptonian technology available to them) that while their opinions on what traits are desirable is biased, their overall genetic science is solid now and they do happen to know how to monitor for actual genetic disorders in addition to their biased ideas.

Maxx Crowley said:
To the point....I don't care if she hasn't committed any nazi-ing on earth 16, she has on, what was it? Earth 10? She still dies. Dies before she can get back and "purge" any other "undesirables". Of which I would fall under from either my genetic ancestry, my sexuality, and probably something religious.

You have to keep due process in mind. She hasn't been proven guilty of any of those crimes, and punishing someone for assumed crimes leads to things like the bloody noses you were JUST complaining about.

Mr Zoat said:
The barmaid turns to an inverted bottle behind the bar with a picture of a beehive on it. "Single or double?"

Ooh. That looks good. I might have to see if I can find some.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 6, 2020

Coda said:
You have to keep due process in mind.

Nazi. So, no, I really don't. I also recall not a single trial before OL wiped out a race. Or a trial before members of the OLC wiped out another race behind his back.

I'm actually rather sickened by all the "Be fair to the Nazi!" cheerleading in the chapter thus far.

Coda said:
She hasn't been proven guilty of any of those crimes, and punishing someone for assumed crimes leads to things like the bloody noses you were JUST complaining about.

I don't recall even mentioning a bloody nose.....like at all.

Or are you talking about the gay boy getting the shit knocked out of him for confessing to his crush? Because there isn't an assumed crime there. Just panic over the subhuman gay admitting his gayness and attraction to you.

Now, are you equating that, as in being gay and assaulted for it, to being a member of a genocidal regime that has murdered at least 6 million people?

Because I might have a hard time accepting that.

Coda · Jan 6, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Nazi. So, no, I really don't. I also recall not a single trial before OL wiped out a race. Or a trial before members of the OLC wiped out another race behind his back.

It should be noted that OL was opposed to that second genocide.

The first one occurred during ongoing hostilities. That doesn't excuse it, but it changes the context of the ethical discussion. It's not really a parallel.

I'm actually rather sickened by all the "Be fair to the Nazi!" cheerleading in the chapter thus far.

It's not "be fair to the Nazi." Be fair to the person who was indoctrinated as a child through no fault of her own, who has a meaningful chance of redemption, who could have the ability to go back and change a world for the better.

Or is it better to kill one Nazi than it is to stop an entire world of them?

Maxx Crowley said:
I don't recall even mentioning a bloody nose.....like at all.

Or are you talking about the gay boy getting the shit knocked out of him for confessing to his crush? Because there isn't an assumed crime there. Just panic over the subhuman gay admitting his gayness and attraction to you.

Now, are you equating that, as in being gay and assaulted for it, to being a member of a genocidal regime that has murdered at least 6 million people?

Because I might have a hard time accepting that.

I'm equating beating someone up because you assume they're morally depraved and beating someone up because you assume they're morally depraved. That one category offends your personal senses and the other doesn't has little bearing on the ethics of the matter. "I really really don't like them" isn't a defense.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 6, 2020

Coda said:
It should be noted that OL was opposed to that second genocide.

Which is meaningless as he didn't even slap any wrists. Though, knowing OL, he was more upset not to be included then he was that it was done.

Coda said:
The first one occurred during ongoing hostilities. That doesn't excuse it, but it changes the context of the ethical discussion. It's not really a parallel.

Ah yes, the "ethical" rules that make it sort of okay this time, but not that time. One was a race that was decimated because OL wanted them out of the way. The other was a race that was decimated because another OL wanted them out of the way.

Coda said:
It's not "be fair to the Nazi." Be fair to the person who was indoctrinated as a child through no fault of her own, who has a meaningful chance of redemption, who could have the ability to go back and change a world for the better.

That sucks. But I'm fairly certain that more than a few hitler youth caught a bullet or two.

Coda said:
Or is it better to kill one Nazi than it is to stop an entire world of them?

Why not both?

And, lets be serious here, one person cannot change the world.

Coda said:
I'm equating beating someone up because you assume they're morally depraved and beating someone up because you assume they're morally depraved. That one category offends your personal senses and the other doesn't has little bearing on the ethics of the matter. "I really really don't like them" isn't a defense.

My personal senses govern pretty much everything I do.

As for the ethics of the matter. I don't give a fuck: Nazi.

Of course, I can accept OL being a hypocrite. All humans are. But he's still the guy who has assaulted, murdered, tortured, mind controlled, and genocided. But the cute Nazi gets a pass because she might be useful.

Gold K her, gather up a group from each of the affected Holocaust victims, and have a party.

Mr Zoat · Jan 6, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Which is meaningless as he didn't even slap any wrists. Though, knowing OL, he was more upset not to be included then he was that it was done.

Punishing the people who did that would have effectively required that he take over the region and bring in significant Orange Lantern Corps resources to impose a settlement.

Ah yes, the "ethical" rules that make it sort of okay this time, but not that time. One was a race that was decimated because OL wanted them out of the way. The other was a race that was decimated because another OL wanted them out of the way.

No, he killed far more than one in ten.

Of course, I can accept OL being a hypocrite. All humans are. But he's still the guy who has assaulted, murdered, tortured, mind controlled, and genocided. But the cute Nazi gets a pass because she might be useful.

He has killed a lot of people, but I'm not sure about murder. Or torture. Murder requires a stable society with fairly enforced laws, and Vega doesn't have that.

And to be fair, he's giving Canis a pass too and across the galaxy there are far more people afraid of Apokolips than some weird human cult that barely lasted a decade.

Gold K her, gather up a group from each of the affected Holocaust victims, and have a party.

You realise that the holocaust happened at least a decade before she was born, right? Overgirl has never even met a Jew.

Sharp Card · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat : I think Maxx Crowley represents a tiny minority view (at least, judging by the relative like count he's been getting in this thread) and has explicitly stated he isn't going to change his mind on anything related to this topic, so I wouldn't get too worked up about what he says.

Mr Zoat · Jan 6, 2020

Sharp Card said:
Mr Zoat : I think Maxx Crowley represents a tiny minority view (at least, judging by the relative like count he's been getting in this thread) and has explicitly stated he isn't going to change his mind on anything related to this topic, so I wouldn't get too worked up about what he says.

Humans naturally react against the things that hurt them. Maxx has encountered some very homophobic people in real life -some of whom were his family- and quite reasonably takes a strong dislike of this homophobic character.

I on other other hand got thrown off a website in a kangaroo court for politely disagreeing with the administrators. As such, I react by trying to engage with people who disagree with me rather than dismissing them, both because I want to persuade them and can't to that without dialogue and because I accept that I could be wrong.

Maxx doesn't have to like her. As she is now she isn't a very nice person and would quite happily send... Say, Dr Kameya, off to a death camp due to her sexual orientation. However, she is also capable of reforming and becoming a far better person, someone who -among other things- wouldn't do that and would view it as quite wrong. Despite being a Hellenist, the SI believes quite strongly in reform -where practical- and redemption. The Renegade path is of course always another option.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Punishing the people who did that would have effectively required that he take over the region and bring in significant Orange Lantern Corps resources to impose a settlement.

Yeah, that sounds like a big pain in the ass. Way too much work. Sucks for the planet they burned though. Hopefully, they got some sensitivity training

Mr Zoat said:
No, he killed far more than one in ten.

Good to kniw.

Mr Zoat said:
He has killed a lot of people, but I'm not sure about murder. Or torture. Murder requires a stable society with fairly enforced laws, and Vega doesn't have that.

And to be fair, he's giving Canis a pass too and across the galaxy there are far more people afraid of Apokolips than some weird human cult that barely lasted a decade.

He has deliberately inflicted pain upon others for information. Demon John for instance, and he did make that group that was with Prankster shit themselves. I would count those as instances of torture.

Beyond that, rules lawyering at its finest. Love you Zoat XD.

I had forgotten about Canis. The team shows up so little these days.

Mr Zoat said:
You realise that the holocaust happened at least a decade before she was born, right? Overgirl has never even met a Jew.

I did not know that. Now I do.

Sucks to be her in hypothetical Maxx SI land

Sharp Card said:
Mr Zoat : I think Maxx Crowley represents a tiny minority view (at least, judging by the relative like count he's been getting in this thread) and has explicitly stated he isn't going to change his mind on anything related to this topic, so I wouldn't get too worked up about what he says.

No one should get too worked up about any of this.

Zoat is going to write his story, and good on him. Genuinely, good on him.

But comments are comments and as long as everyone stays on topic and in the rules, we can say what we want/feel.

Also, unless Zoat asks for help, and minus a in good fun push for Kon/OL, I'm not here to change his story.

Coda · Jan 6, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Ah yes, the "ethical" rules that make it sort of okay this time, but not that time. One was a race that was decimated because OL wanted them out of the way. The other was a race that was decimated because another OL wanted them out of the way.

I'm not saying it makes it okay. I'm saying it makes the circumstances different enough that the arguments can't be directly compared. Philosophers and ethicists have debated over war for millennia and a couple guys arguing on the Internet aren't going to make some brilliant observation that resolves those long-lasting dilemmas, but when it comes to how individual people treat individual other people we can have meaningful discussion.

Maxx Crowley said:
That sucks. But I'm fairly certain that more than a few hitler youth caught a bullet or two.

Of course. But even though the Hitler Youth were known to rat out their own families, there were also people who were recognized as members of the Nazi community while covertly working to help people escape.

Maxx Crowley said:
And, lets be serious here, one person cannot change the world.

Adolf Hitler was one person. The world has clearly changed.

One person can't change the world by themselves, but one person in the right place at the right time with the right thing to say can start a movement.

Mr Zoat · Jan 6, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Yeah, that sounds like a big pain in the ass. Way too much work.

Yes, running a city is a lot of work. Running a stellar cluster is a HUGE amount of work. Drop-every-other-project-mind-control-millions-to-make-it-even-possible amounts of work.

Sucks for the planet they burned though.

Objectively, the psions were worse than the Nazis, having been doing it for longer and actually being competent at it. You've been saying that you would cheerfully kill someone for associating with the Nazis, regardless of their personal involvement in genocide, murder, or other offences. You think I'm giving Overgirl special treatment. Okay. Why are you giving the psions special treatment?

Hopefully, they got some sensitivity training.

They didn't.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Yes, running a city is a lot of work. Running a stellar cluster is a HUGE amount of work. Drop-every-other-project-mind-control-millions-to-make-it-even-possible amounts of work.

Definately fall behind on your netflix.

Mr Zoat said:
Objectively, the psions were worse than the Nazis, having been doing it for longer and actually being competent at it. You've been saying that you would cheerfully kill someone for associating with the Nazis, regardless of their personal involvement in genocide, murder, or other offences.

Man...aliens are always better then humans.

Mr Zoat said:
You think I'm giving Overgirl special treatment. Okay. Why are you giving the psions special treatment?

No, I think Orange Lantern is giving her special treatment. While based upon, has been stated many a time, he is not you.

As for Psion treatment, I bring them and the Citadel up as examples of what has already been done to the "But the morals! The ethics!" Crowd.

She can get the same fire as them as far as I am concerned.

Mr Zoat said:
They didn't.

Damn, gotta get that OLC HR number.

DrThoth · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Despite being a Hellenist, the SI believes quite strongly in reform -where practical- and redemption. The Renegade path is of course always another option.

Not sure if this has been asked, because I haven't had time to read all the posts, but what would the Renegade do if Overgirl had showed up in his timeline? Assuming that he gets notified about the Bleed tear in the first place (does he have scanners in that area?).

Which also reminds me, I know Renegade dismissed the rumor of the Spear of Destiny, but I do feel like he would make the serious effort to track it down at some point, and given he has an Atlantean nation and Circe as allies, I don't think Krieger could effectively evade him if he was actively looking for it.

Thirdly, as far as I'm aware, you've stated that you have no plans for Paragon and Renegade to meet, but wouldn't the latter also be involved in the upcoming Crisis? Though it would be amusing and kind of poetic if there are so many Pauls that the primary two of the story just join different cliques and never meaningfully interact (Renegade with Sybarite, Red and Anti-Green would be a fun group to watch).

DAT_NOOB · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Humans naturally react against the things that hurt them. Maxx has encountered some very homophobic people in real life -some of whom were his family- and quite reasonably takes a strong dislike of this homophobic character.

I on other other hand got thrown off a website in a kangaroo court for politely disagreeing with the administrators. As such, I react by trying to engage with people who disagree with me rather than dismissing them, both because I want to persuade them and can't to that without dialogue and because I accept that I could be wrong.

Huh, that actually explains a lot to me about myself thanks Zoat.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 6, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Humans naturally react against the things that hurt them. Maxx has encountered some very homophobic people in real life -some of whom were his family- and quite reasonably takes a strong dislike of this homophobic character.

I'm actually just touched that you remembered. You're a good guy Zoat.

Coda said:
I'm not saying it makes it okay. I'm saying it makes the circumstances different enough that the arguments can't be directly compared. Philosophers and ethicists have debated over war for millennia and a couple guys arguing on the Internet aren't going to make some brilliant observation that resolves those long-lasting dilemmas, but when it comes to how individual people treat individual other people we can have meaningful discussion.

I'd rather just watch some Sumo. I think the next Basho happens soon. Are you a fan?

Coda said:
Of course. But even though the Hitler Youth were known to rat out their own families, there were also people who were recognized as members of the Nazi community while covertly working to help people escape.

Yes, it would be a small tragedy to have them caught in the crossfire. To be clear, if Overgirl had shown up as one of them, stating those kinds of feelings, I wouldn't be so hard on her. To be frank...heritage-wise, I'm a proud Mutt. With so many mixes that it doesn't really matter anymore. But some of those mixed people further back in my bloodline lived in Germany. Do the math.

Coda said:
Adolf Hitler was one person. The world has clearly changed.

I wouldn't really say he changed the world, because then I'd have to give Stalin that credit too. Impacted the world certainly...but was it really one world one day, then another the next? I'm not sure. Around that time frame, I think dropping the A-bomb changed the world.

Coda said:
One person can't change the world by themselves, but one person in the right place at the right time with the right thing to say can start a movement.

Fair enough.

But the SI is one person, and I am another. I won't claim to be a great person, or even a good one most days. I strongly believe in retribution, in fighting back. In making sure the bill has been paid.

Sadly, I'm no Charles Xavier.

(Properly written) Magneto for me.

Mr Zoat · Jan 6, 2020

DrThoth said:
Not sure if this has been asked, because I haven't had time to read all the posts, but what would the Renegade do if Overgirl had showed up in his timeline? Assuming that he gets notified about the Bleed tear in the first place (does he have scanners in that area?).

He hired a girl who murdered her maths teacher. He probably wouldn't bother trying to reform her.

Which also reminds me, I know Renegade dismissed the rumor of the Spear of Destiny, but I do feel like he would make the serious effort to track it down at some point, and given he has an Atlantean nation and Circe as allies, I don't think Krieger could effectively evade him if he was actively looking for it.

He could, but the Renegade really isn't worrying about him.

Vaermina · Jan 7, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Yes, running a city is a lot of work. Running a stellar cluster is a HUGE amount of work. Drop-every-other-project-mind-control-millions-to-make-it-even-possible amounts of work.

That's why this thing called "delegation" exists.

DrThoth · Jan 7, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
He hired a girl who murdered her maths teacher. He probably wouldn't bother trying to reform her.

Would be fun seeing her and Scandal interact then. I don't remember why Elise murdered her teacher but I feel like the Renegade would have some reaction to her Nazism and try to turn in some typically Renegade asshole-who-gets-results kind of way. But he has enough super-strong women flying around (often literally) so I can see him thinking she's not worth it.

Mr Zoat said:
He could, but the Renegade really isn't worrying about him.

It's less about Krieger and more about the Spear of Destiny, which Renegade should very well know is out there. As a tool or weapon that could conceivably kill or counter Darkseid, or more mundanely be used by a typical supervillain, I feel like it should be a priority to track it down. If crossover kelpie-amulets are worth his time, this should be too.

Could be fun to see some Church figures getting in contact with him, like the battle monks John Constantine met, especially after his activities in the UK and his public appearances discussing non-Earth religions. The Church in either timeline doesn't seem interested in actually interacting with the SIs, besides Paragon-Mattias.

Ace Dreamer · Jan 7, 2020

I found it fun to read-up on kryptonite - some of the Pre-Crisis stuff was really, really, weird, one-shot, throw-aways. Green seems to have been the most stable over time, red was the 'humour' kryptonite, gold was the permanent powers killer, with no (known) antidote. Of course, seeing as this is QQ, and the current plot, pink might interest some.

Coda · Jan 7, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
I'd rather just watch some Sumo. I think the next Basho happens soon. Are you a fan?

I haven't taken the time to seriously follow it but I have a whole lot of respect for the art.

Pinklestia · Jan 7, 2020

Siskulous said:
Yeah....I'm kinda done with this arc. Overgirl is a disgusting character I want nothing to do with. While I still think Maxx's approach to kill them all is wrong (Daryl Davis's approach is both more moral and more effective in the long run) if I encountered someone like Overgirl I would get the hell away from them as soon as I possibly could.

Overgirl is like Purity from Worm in that she has started to not believe the Nazi ideology.

And unlike Purity she is less of a hypocrite and murderer.

Think of it as her growing in a cult.

If instead of Nazis we had an Emperor of Earth Superman who used more or less facist methods only worse since he did lobotomies ala Red Son and the Justice Lords, would you still be so disgusted with Overgirl or want her to change sides?

jonasquinn · Jan 7, 2020

So I just did some research and if what I found is accurate the US only formally legalised Homosexuality nationwide in 2003, which means that theoretically if Overgirl does change her views and successfully gets Earth 10 to legalise it they'd be less than ten years behind the curve of the supposed Land of the Free

Obviously it isn't a one to one comparison since, you know, America didn't kill people for being Homosexual and several states legalised it in the '70s but that's still uncomfortably recent

Stsword · Jan 7, 2020

Ace Dreamer said:
I found it fun to read-up on kryptonite - some of the Pre-Crisis stuff was really, really, weird, one-shot, throw-aways. Green seems to have been the most stable over time, red was the 'humour' kryptonite, gold was the permanent powers killer, with no (known) antidote. Of course, seeing as this is QQ, and the current plot, pink might interest some.

Perriwinkle and Silver are good for humour too.

Silver- Superman "This isn't Taco Bell! Sniff sniff. Someone's baking brownies in Texas. Who wants brownies?"

Maxx Crowley · Jan 7, 2020

jonasquinn said:
America didn't people for being Homosexual and several states legalised it in the '70s but that's still uncomfortably recent

Oh they people'd us friend. They people'd us hard.

Thankfully, their cakes are safe. Which is all I'll be saying about that, rules and all.

First boy I ever kissed, and wrote a letter to at 12 (which was about as vanilla as it could be because...well 12, what the fuck did we know?) got body slammed on the ground by his two older cousins until he vomited twice. His dad found the note, and decided as a good christian, of a good christian country, this just couldn't stand. "This is America! You'll be a real American, boy!" (Whatever the fuck that means) So he went and got his Brother's two older boys (Like 17), brought them over, and stood there while they picked up his son and body slammed him on the ground over, and over, and over. His whole back was a bruise.

I don't know if he ever said it was me that wrote it. But after he told me what happened, he never spoke to me again after that.

Land of the Free. Be afraid, or they'll freedom the fuck out of you.

jaelin910 · Jan 7, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
My personal senses govern pretty much everything I do.

As for the ethics of the matter. I don't give a fuck: Nazi.

I'm honestly rather impressed by the parallel you've been building between yourself and overgirl here. It's a remarkable example of how being opposed to someone who's in the wrong doesn't mean you're not just as wrong.
It's kinda like watch an eating competition, like, wow imagining myself in your shoes makes me slightly nauseous but I'm still amazed.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Just zis guy, you know?

Getting sticky.

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