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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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SirKaid said:
That would likely be because the Nazi position is, to be blunt, complete horseshit. It doesn't result in social unity, it results in mass murder and deep unhappiness in anyone who doesn't perfectly fit the Nazi mould.
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It's different if Nazis can introduce a disease or something that kills all non-aryans (all people without certain genetic markers) That would prevent a war spanning decades and there being a huge rebellion - if the only people that could rebel were Aryans and those with other types of resistance to the disease.
For a sci-fi / comic book example, If they had, say, nanomachines, they could do just that - release a swarm of nanomachines that slowly kills everything that doesn't have certain genetic markers by using their cells to create more nanomachines. So every person becomes a disease transmitter.
 
SirKaid said:
That would likely be because the Nazi position is, to be blunt, complete horseshit. It doesn't result in social unity, it results in mass murder and deep unhappiness in anyone who doesn't perfectly fit the Nazi mould.
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When the majority of the people left unpurged "perfectly fit the Nazi mould" then what you have could be called "social unity"
 
Ganurath said:
Birthing gender receives a nearly fertilized egg from oviposition gender, which received it from the combiner gender, which had a threesome with the egg transporting gender and seed transporting gender, who in turn got their cargo from the egg generating gender and seed generating gender, respectively. At each step of the process, genetic data is contributed, until the egg is fully fertile upon the contribution of the birthing gender.

It's not hard.
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But is it fun?
 
I'm not sure some people really even know what social unity is.

Focused purely on unity? It doesn't really matter if an ideology is horseshit as long as it's able to bind people together. To inspire them to common cause and to instill a sense of loyalty. There's always going to be some level of deviancy, but on the whole? Of course there's going to be social unity.

Especially with how committed the Nazis were to making sure people grew up to be like them. They devoted a shitload of effort into indoctrinating children into their beliefs. They went hard on that shit. Complete with mandatory youth programs for boys and girls that had them from the ages of 10 to 18. Teaching them to be proper Germans according to the Nazi ideal.

"These boys and girls enter our organizations at ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht will take care of that."
—Adolf Hitler (1938)

And if you tried to resist being part of their youth programs? You'd inevitably come crawling back because one of the methods they used to make it mandatory was to make it impossible to get a job or go to university.

People growing up after a Nazi victory would have never had a chance to not be a faithful Nazi. Especially when they've been indoctrinated over multiple generations on an Earth where the Nazis have held onto power up to the modern day.
 
ForeverShogo said:
I'm not sure some people really even know what social unity is.

Focused purely on unity? It doesn't really matter if an ideology is horseshit as long as it's able to bind people together. To inspire them to common cause and to instill a sense of loyalty. There's always going to be some level of deviancy, but on the whole? Of course there's going to be social unity.

Especially with how committed the Nazis were to making sure people grew up to be like them. They devoted a shitload of effort into indoctrinating children into their beliefs. They went hard on that shit. Complete with mandatory youth programs for boys and girls that had them from the ages of 10 to 18. Teaching them to be proper Germans according to the Nazi ideal.

"These boys and girls enter our organizations at ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht will take care of that."
—Adolf Hitler (1938)

And if you tried to resist being part of their youth programs? You'd inevitably come crawling back because one of the methods they used to make it mandatory was to make it impossible to get a job or go to university.

People growing up after a Nazi victory would have never had a chance to not be a faithful Nazi. Especially when they've been indoctrinated over multiple generations on an Earth where the Nazis have held onto power up to the modern day.
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Ow my sides. Thats hilarious, especially considering that Hitler as a veteran of the 1st World War should have been completely aware of just how important social status (old boys club) the officer ranks of wehrmacht was and how dominated it was by the old aristocracy
 
Nevertheless, it was still the aim of Hitler Youth training to achieve "classlessness".

Education and training programs for the Hitler Youth were designed to undermine the values of the traditional elitist structures of German society along with their privileges; their training also aimed at an obliteration of social and intellectual distinctions between the classes, so as to be replaced and dominated by the political goals of Hitler's totalitarian dictatorship. Besides promoting a doctrine of classlessness, additional training was provided that linked state-identified enemies such as Jews with Germany's previous defeat in the First World War, and societal decline.
 
Mr Zoat said:
this Germany did fine without needing to scapegoat anyone
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Hmm...
I wonder if that's the same as our world.
I suspect Nazis transported to the modern day would claim there are a number of things wrong with modern Germany. Probably things like social trust/cohesion, amount spent on disability, erosion of the family unit, population shrinkage, lack of power/respect in the world, lack of a sense of national purpose and maybe various crime figures. (I'm trying to model old Nazi reactions based on crossing the kinds of things modern neo-nazis say with what the old style Nazis claimed to value)

Maxx Crowley said:
First "Degenerate" Crack I get, I'm ripping her tongue out.
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Figuratively or literally?

SirKaid said:
That would likely be because the Nazi position is, to be blunt, complete horseshit. It doesn't result in social unity, it results in mass murder and deep unhappiness in anyone who doesn't perfectly fit the Nazi mould.
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I find myself doubting that it would result in worse social unity or deep unhappiness for imperfect fits (Hitler was an imperfect fit, what with not being blonde and blue-eyed).
Issues in the past were rarely one-sided, there were generally upsides and downsides to most positions that were genuine upsides/downsides (everything from allowing non-land owners the vote to settling down to grow crops probably has both pros and cons). It's just that, if you are balancing a lower disability allowance bill against mass murder, one side of the metaphorical scale is going to be a few orders of magnitude heavier.

tl;dr: things don't have to be perfectly evil to be evil
 
Ganurath said:
By castigating in such an emotionally impactful manner that it becomes painful to speak in their own defense.
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Think I'll stick with something that has actual impact. You know, breaking the Nazi's jaw to get my fist in, good grip on the tongue, maybe a crack about asking if she likes that "degenerate, subhuman' flesh taste...and then ripping it out by the root.

Because, you know, get shit done.

Quick! Incoming Tyrion quote!

....The pony arc starts soon doesn't it? That just hit me.
 
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Maxx Crowley said:
Think I'll stick with something that has actual impact. You know, breaking the Nazi's jaw to get my fist in, good grip on the tongue, maybe a crack about asking if she likes that "degenerate, subhuman' flesh taste...and then ripping it out by the root.

Because, you know, get shit done.

Quick! Incoming Tyrion quote!

....The pony arc starts soon doesn't it? That just hit me.
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Pony episode is 94, this one is 92. I think we're getting 2 episodes of ponies though.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

The sexes are: Greater A, Greater B, Greater C, Lesser A, Lesser B, Lesser C and neutral.

Greaters can only breed with other Greaters, Lessers can only breed with other Lessers.
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Mr Zoat said:
Neutrals can't breed with anyone. They're infertile, and lack identifying sexual characteristics.
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Then, yeah, they're not the same species. Reproductive isolation -- no gene flow between populations -- is what we mean by separate species.

In the real world, species with multiple sexes do exist -- typically fungi or bacteria. This doesn't actually mean what you think it might. Reproduction still only ever requires two individuals. Reproduction requiring more than two would be so insanely selected against it should basically never show up unless artificially created.

What multiple sexes mean is that a creature is only fertile with the other sexes, not its own. Think of it as a protection against inbreeding. Multiple sex markers where both had to be different is also a possibility, but I don't know if it's been observed.
 
WhiteNoise said:
Then, yeah, they're not the same species. Reproductive isolation -- no gene flow between populations -- is what we mean by separate species.

In the real world, species with multiple sexes do exist -- typically fungi or bacteria. This doesn't actually mean what you think it might. Reproduction still only ever requires two individuals. Reproduction requiring more than two would be so insanely selected against it should basically never show up unless artificially created.

What multiple sexes mean is that a creature is only fertile with the other sexes, not its own. Think of it as a protection against inbreeding. Multiple sex markers where both had to be different is also a possibility, but I don't know if it's been observed.
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I'm trying to think of a way that only Greaters can breed with Greaters and only Lessers can breed with Lessers, but Greaters and Lessers can both have Greater and Lesser children. I know it's genetically possible to set up that kind of system one way (i.e. Greaters can have Greater and Lesser children, but Lessers can only have Lesser Children) but not sure off the top of my head if it can work both ways, though I'd guess that it is possible.

Or there could be pubescence from a more neutral childhood state that diverges into Greater and Lesser based on environmental cues instead of solely genetics (Like, a Child A could be a Greater A or a Lesser A post-puberty depending on diet, or radiation exposure, local population distribution of Greater and Lesser members of set A, or how close the nearest body of freshwater that is, itself, closer to magnetic north than the child)

Edit: Though the evolutionary pressures against more than two partners in reproduction don't mean much in DC, when there are species going around and artificially messing with the biology of other species scientifically and arcanely.
 
Gammadion (part 19)
14th March
22:47 GMT +1

I step out through the bar's doorway and hold out my left hand.

"Orange Lantern."

Guy's head appears, and he looks less than amused. The German passers-by around me on the other hand look decidedly amused, beginning to form a rough circle around me.

"You plannin' on tellin' us she was a Nazi?"

Perhaps it would be best if I..? Yes.

I fly directly upwards fifty metres, high enough that the crowd can't hear me but low enough not to trouble aircraft.

"No. I felt that it would be prejudicial-"

He bows his head slightly "Ahh."

"-to her rehabilitation if everyone around her was reacting to that facet of her character."

"Rehab."

"Well, yes. What did you think I was going to do with her? She couldn't very well miss that we were a somewhat more diverse society than she was used to."

"Coulda kept her in Supe's Fortress."

"For an indefinite period of time?"

"For a day or two, 'till we work somethin' else out."

"I've got her sitting and talking peacefully with two gay women in a gay bar."

"Huh?"

"Denazification progress I wouldn't have made if she was still in the Fortress."

"Come a long way since blowin' up the whole Citadel Empire there, Orange."

"There wasn't anything to rehabilitate the Citadel to." I shake my head. "How's the research on the portal coming?"

"What you askin' me for?" He looks away from his ring for a moment. "Only thing I've done is fetch some a' Overgirl's skin cells and blood from the-"

Idiot! Of course there'd be-!

"-place you picked her up. Dunno if they're actually gettin' anythin' useful off them."

"Have you spoken to the Guardians?"

"'bout this? No. This is just normal Earth crap, right? Why, you think I should?"

"I don't know anyone else on Earth I could meaningfully ask for input. That means I'm down to asking either Dox, Kalmin-"

"Hell no."

"-or Hinon. I don't know enough about whatever that portal was to offer anything myself. Have you unlocked some sort of Bleed control construct from the archives?"

"I could prob'ly shut it down if it opened up again, but that's it."

"Really?"

"Yeah, it's-. Kinda not relevant."

"So what, you just called me to complain about me not taking the time out to tell you that Earth Ten is where Kal-El landed in Nazi Germany and the Nazis won the War with Kryptonian technology?"

"Oh. That how it happened?"

"I haven't asked for a moment by moment account, but that's what she told me."

"All it woulda taken for the Nazis to win would be Supe's pa gettin' the landin' zone wrong."

"And not putting any security on the ship's database. Them just getting to bring up Overman would have been bad but hardly catastrophic."

He smiles. "Reckon Al coulda taken him, do yah?"

Difficult to say. Alan would have had the edge in experience, but most of his early career involved him fighting mundane criminals rather than high-powered superpeople. If the Nazis had been prepared to take people off front line duties in order to train him…

"Not sure. Alan died on their Earth, but if other things were a little different…"

"An' what happened to their me?"

"Unless you were conceived before nineteen thirty eight then I doubt that you were ever born."

"Yeah? How 'bout you?"

"I haven't asked, but she didn't appear to recognise me. And since I come from a parallel universe anyway, there probably aren't versions of me in other parallels-."

In a sane multiverse. Blue-me does rather suggest that things don't work as I think they should. But... I mean, why would there be? We couldn't all come from Earth Prime, and even if there were multiple similar parallels the chance of multiple versions of me being transferred at the same time must be astronomically small. There wasn't a native version of me, after all. I could accept one instance of another me as chance, but if it turns out that I'm everywhere...

"Ah, hey, Bats wants ta know if she's got someplace to stay tonight."

"We haven't really got that far. I can book her into a hotel if someone hasn't cracked the portal by then."

"You okay ta keep lookin' aftah her?"

"Yes, though I'm not entirely sure that she'll be okay with me continuing to be her escort. She's not exactly happy about having to confront how non-Nazi our Earth is."

"Sucks t' be her. Hey, they got any Lanterns ovah there?"

"Some Nazi got Alan's ring after they killed him. Otherwise, their Earth doesn't have any Lanterns."

"Think we could take 'em?"

"I'm not sure why picking a fight with a planet of National Socialists would be a sensible thing to do. If you're talking about having the League fight the New Statesmen-"

"That what they call themselves?"

"-then I'd bet on you… You do have kryptonite on you, right?"

"Seems like a crutch."

"Their Overman has an extra fifty years' experience and is used to killing. In a fight he'd probably beat ours."

"Hn. I'll tell Supes you said-"

There's a blast of displaced air as Overgirl appears next to me.

"-that."

"As you will. Signing off."

My ring fades as I lower my left hand.

"Angelika, I think I've been pushing you harder than-."

"I have not enjoyed this, but it has not exactly been a re-education centre."

"True, but I've… Pretty much played my hand. How about you pick somewhere, and we go there?"

She nod thoughtfully.

"I think that I would like to see my home. Take me to Wewelsburg Castle."
 
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Flux Casey said:
He means native to those parallels, though I agree that bit could have been clearer. And make you wonder why he never considered whether there was another displaced Paul as well.
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Likely because if he was there and had a Ring of any kind, that world would be facing some serious societal upheaval that would be worth commenting on and she would have noticed him on sight.
 
Mr Zoat said:
... even if there were multiple similar parallels the chance of multiple versions of me being transferred at the same time must be astronomically small. There wasn't a native version of me, after all.
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Not very clever reasoning there Paul. You haven't got a clue as to the reason or cause of your arrival so you've got no data to back your claim of "astronomically small". And your second sentence is irrelevant, a total non-sequitur.
 
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